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View Full Version : ($60) 5-handed, shopping for some blinds w/KQo


bluefeet
12-19-2005, 10:01 PM
$60 Stars tubo
Seat 5: (2475 in chips)
Seat 7: (1365 in chips)
bluefeet (3150 in chips) Button
Seat 2: (4700 in chips) SB
Seat 3: (1810 in chips) BB

All post the ante 25
L7 100/200 +25

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif]
2 folds
bluefeet: ???

My image: I had sat quiet until 100/200, picking up JJ in EP, pushing 9bb's. Seat-3 called with AK, and I held up. Soon after I call a shorter Seat-2's push w/AK, him hitting a Q to fill his AQ. Short again, I push 77 into a 88 and land a river 7. So basically, I've been involved in most of the more recent hands, all justifiable moves.

Seat 2: The loosest of the bunch. Making some pretty loose AI calls during the mid-levels, with his stack going up and down appropriately.

Seat 3: Solid player. Pretty tight throughout, taking his shots in position. Getting doubled up earlier with Aces.


So...what do you do here? I'll save you the SnGPT look-up, pushing sucks. If you're not folding, what ARE you doing, and what is your plan facing aggression from either blind PF?

bones
12-19-2005, 10:06 PM
Make it 550, fold to a shove.

bigt439
12-19-2005, 10:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
$60 Stars tubo
Seat 5: (2475 in chips)
Seat 7: (1365 in chips)
bluefeet (3150 in chips) Button
Seat 2: (4700 in chips) SB
Seat 3: (1810 in chips) BB

All post the ante 25
L7 100/200 +25

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif]
2 folds
bluefeet: ???

My image: I had sat quiet until 100/200, picking up JJ in EP, pushing 9bb's. Seat-3 called with AK, and I held up. Soon after I call a shorter Seat-2's push w/AK, him hitting a Q to fill his AQ. Short again, I push 77 into a 88 and land a river 7. So basically, I've been involved in most of the more recent hands, all justifiable moves.

Seat 2: The loosest of the bunch. Making some pretty loose AI calls during the mid-levels, with his stack going up and down appropriately.

Seat 3: Solid player. Pretty tight throughout, taking his shots in position. Getting doubled up earlier with Aces.


So...what do you do here? I'll save you the SnGPT look-up, pushing sucks. If you're not folding, what ARE you doing, and what is your plan facing aggression from either blind PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising way worse than your hand here, and the price is 500 - 550.

tigerite
12-19-2005, 10:17 PM
BB's stack size is bothersome. I don't think a fold would be flat out terrible here because of that and your own stack size.. but I think the default play and probably correct one would be to do a standard raise.

bluefeet
12-19-2005, 10:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Make it 550, fold to a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright - that'll do.

I posted this as punishment for making a move that might be a common mistake for some.

I INCORRECTLY applied logic that my raise amount needed to be bigger to slip this past the loose-SB to get my hands on BB's chips. In doing so, creating a FALSE sense of committedness having passed the first test, now facing a push from BB -- with a range that certainly dominates the KQ.

"Make it 550, fold to a shove." - perfect answer IMO.

Maulik
12-19-2005, 11:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So...what do you do here? I'll save you the SnGPT look-up, pushing sucks. If you're not folding, what ARE you doing, and what is your plan facing aggression from either blind PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given all the action and havoc I've been wreaking, I may fold this in earlier position.

But whatever your standard raise would be, this seems like a spot for it.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising way worse than your hand here, and the price is 500 - 550.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I am, he's been involved and contesting too many pots.

45suited
12-20-2005, 01:50 AM
Forgive me guys, but I'm having hard time with the 'raise, but fold to BB shove' line here.

There's 2585 in the pot after BB's raise, 1260 for us to call. That's just over 2:1. If we call and lose, we'll still have a shortish but playable stack of 1340.

If you decide to raise to 550, I don't see how you can fold to a push from the BB unless he is the tightest of players. Your odds of over 2:1 hold up pretty well against his pushing range vs a standard button raise, IMO. If you ran into a dominating hand, that's bad luck, but I can't fault your call. Is it so hard to see him pushing vs a standard button raise with, say, 77-JJ in addition to the hands that dominate you?

tigerite
12-20-2005, 09:13 AM
I'm going to do some calculations on this in a little while, so we can determine which is the best play.

tigerite
12-20-2005, 09:52 AM
Ok let us assume that SB will only re-raise all-in with TT+, AK+ (probably too tight - but it'll do for a starting point) and that BB will do so with 88+, AQ+.

Now we hold KQo so

88,99,TT,JJ,AA 6 ways
QQ 3 ways
KK 3 ways
AK 4*3 ways = 12 ways
AQ 4*3 ways = 12 ways

So

R 500, Rr/F SB 0.2111 ( (24 + 12) / 1225 ) = 0.029%
R 500, Rr/F BB 0.2034 ( (36 + 24) / 1225 ) = 0.049 * (1 - 0.029) = 0.04754%
R 500, Both F 0.2541 ( (1-0.029) * (1-0.04754) of time ) = 0.924469%

Thus if we always fold to a push from either (SB is a no brainer) then

(0.2541 * 0.924469) + (0.2034 * 0.04754) + (0.2111 * 0.029) = 0.2349 + 0.00967 + 0.00620 = 0.2508

.. which is obviously a lot more than 0.2316. So the raise, we can say for certain, is correct.

Now if he really is re-raising with 88+,AQ+ we should obviously fold KQo here. Our equity is only 0.311366 against this range..

Fold 0.2034
Call/Win 0.3296
Call/Lose 0.1193

(0.3296 * 0.311366) + (0.1193 * 0.688634) = 0.1026262336 + 0.0821540362

= 0.1847802698 which is way less than 0.2034, definite fold.

All interesting stuff..

yid3655
12-20-2005, 09:55 AM
Thanks Tigerite, very nice post

tigerite
12-20-2005, 09:57 AM
I could try with 550 but I think that the raising to 550 wouldn't be as +$EV as to 500, because you would have less when you fold to a push, but the fold at the end would still be a fold.

OrcaDK
12-20-2005, 09:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Ok let us assume that SB will only re-raise all-in with TT+, AK+ (probably too tight - but it'll do for a starting point) and that BB will do so with 88+, AQ+.

Now we hold KQo so

88,99,TT,JJ,AA 6 ways
QQ 3 ways
KK 3 ways
AK 4*3 ways = 12 ways
AQ 4*3 ways = 12 ways

So

R 500, Rr/F SB 0.2111 ( (24 + 12) / 1225 ) = 0.029%
R 500, Rr/F BB 0.2034 ( (36 + 24) / 1225 ) = 0.049 * (1 - 0.029) = 0.04754%
R 500, Both F 0.2541 ( (1-0.029) * (1-0.04754) of time ) = 0.924469%

Thus if we always fold to a push from either (SB is a no brainer) then

(0.2541 * 0.924469) + (0.2034 * 0.04754) + (0.2111 * 0.029) = 0.2349 + 0.00967 + 0.00620 = 0.2508

.. which is obviously a lot more than 0.2316. So the raise, we can say for certain, is correct.

Now if he really is re-raising with 88+,AQ+ we should obviously fold KQo here. Our equity is only 0.311366 against this range..

Fold 0.2034
Call/Win 0.3296
Call/Lose 0.1193

(0.3296 * 0.311366) + (0.1193 * 0.688634) = 0.1026262336 + 0.0821540362

= 0.1847802698 which is way less than 0.2034, definite fold.

All interesting stuff..

[/ QUOTE ]

Will you marry me? Nh!

45suited
12-20-2005, 10:01 AM
Nice work tigerite. The point of my post was that it wasn't an auto-fold because of the pot odds, clearly you've shown that it is. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

bennies
12-20-2005, 12:17 PM
Very nice work.

I do feel the ranges are too tight though, a raise to 500 from the button is not very scary, I imagine the BB will play hands as weak as 55, 76s, A8 and KJ.

He probably won't push all these hands though, but maybe something like 66+, KQ, A9+ ?

bennies
12-20-2005, 12:20 PM
Against 66+, KQ, A9+ Hero wins 37.2% of the time.

tigerite
12-20-2005, 12:22 PM
Are ya kidding? When in his post he says "Seat 3: Solid player. Pretty tight throughout, taking his shots in position. Getting doubled up earlier with Aces."? He's really going to re-raise you all in with 66+, A9+, KQo+? With 8BB left? I don't agree.. the SB's range will be looser but most of the hands he will call, which is just really hard to calculate by ICM anyway, as you have to then worry about flop etc yada yada.

bennies
12-20-2005, 12:24 PM
eeeh, thanks for taking the time, somehow I thought BB was the loose one

tigerite
12-20-2005, 12:27 PM
Oh no, for sure if the BB was the loose one, I'd have put like top 12% at least for the re-raise all-in. Blue's image is also important here in the eyes of the solid BB. I think his range for re-push here would be really quite tight. I might consider AJs and just the slim chance of 77 in there, but much more than that.. it's stretching it /images/graemlins/smile.gif