Does ICM take in FE at all?

Sry this is such a noob question.

Does ICM take in the FE results for whatever decision you choose? If no, then wouldnt it be correct in alot of situations to call instead of fold when ICM says 0 EV or near zero EV, because you break even chip-wise but lose Folding Equity.

Brian

[The Yugoslavian]

ICM is just a chip model that calculates (using many assumptions) a chip stack's overall equity based on tournament payout structure.

SNGPT helps one calculate what this may entail in a practical sense when looking at STT situations. Based on your opponents' calling ranges, SNGPT calculations *do* take into account FE.

ICM never says 'near zero EV or zero EV' unless the stack is zero...then you have exactly zero EV (unless you're already ITM).

Yugoslav

[ QUOTE ]
ICM is just a chip model that calculates (using many assumptions) a chip stack's overall equity based on tournament payout structure.

[/ QUOTE ]
I posted soething similar a few days ago -- there seems to be a lot of confusion, or rather just an assuption that ICM is the whole process by which we take into account calling and pushing ranges, actions, hand equity, etc. Determining equity in the prize pool, based upon chip counts, by some method (most commonly ICM) is an important step in the process.

I think it would be useful to coin a name for the whole process. If I were really clever, I'd be proposing one, but well...

[tigerite]

Eastbaying. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

zabt,

Well ppl are dumb and misinformed.

I have certainly misspoken about it but the confusion was only semantical and not fundamental. But people really ought to take the time to learn about what they're using to study the game...the idea of ICM at its heart is very simple.

Yugoslav

[AceRat138]

Sorry to kind of highjack this post, but do you guys actually use SNGPT to calculate ICM during the course of a tournament? When I am 8 tabling I don't see how I would have the time to plug all the info into the program to give me the info I need. Do you guys do this or do you play mostly on intuition and use SNGPT in tough situtions?

I use it while I'm 8-tabling. I have SNGPT set up to use voice input. Pretty easy to do with some light scripting knowledge and some 3rd party voice recognition software.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to kind of highjack this post, but do you guys actually use SNGPT to calculate ICM during the course of a tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were going to use it during a tournament, why would you stop at ICM calculations? I'd use it to figure out pushing and calling ranges, too.

(No, I don't use it during a tournament.)

[The Yugoslavian]

SNGPT is not meant for use while playing....that's likely against the party T&Cs anyway.

It's a study tool...

Yugoslav

[ QUOTE ]
SNGPT is not meant for use while playing....that's likely against the party T&Cs anyway.

It's a study tool...

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I was joking about using it while mtabling. You were supposed to ask, "How the hell do you use SNGPT with voice activation while mtabling??"

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to kind of highjack this post, but do you guys actually use SNGPT to calculate ICM during the course of a tournament? When I am 8 tabling I don't see how I would have the time to plug all the info into the program to give me the info I need. Do you guys do this or do you play mostly on intuition and use SNGPT in tough situtions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised that someone who is 8 tabling is asking this question.

[The Yugoslavian]

I bet there are several 2p2ers who could make that happen if they really wanted to Bazuul. In fact, I couldn't imagine it being too difficult for someone with voice activation programming experience and such.

My sarcasm meter is broke too I guess /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

Yugoslav

Well if you would've asked, I would have replied and said

"Easy. Every time it's first to me on the bubble, I just take a deep breath and say something like:
buy-in-$33-players-3-blinds-300/600-hand-Jack-spades-Nine
-spades-i'm-in-cutoff-bigblind-has-1430chips-calling-range-
16percent-smallblind-has-2230chips-calling-range-8percent-
button-has..... etc. until I finish vocalizing the situation and hit ALT-SHIFT-S which is the macro key to compute.
And then I just wait a few second and the answer pops out, and I move accordingly."

Then everybody would see how riduculous it is to try to use SNGPT while mtabling AND also see how clever and witty I am.


And you ruined it, Yugo.

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]
Does ICM take in the FE results for whatever decision you choose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but not explicitly.

ICM models the values of the chips in your stack against those in everyone elses stacks, and extrapolates based on the fact that chips are likely to get you more chips. Which implicitly involves the effects of Fold Equity on future hands.

[ QUOTE ]

If no, then wouldnt it be correct in alot of situations to call instead of fold when ICM says 0 EV or near zero EV, because you break even chip-wise but lose Folding Equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not. (I think you mean 0 EV Diff)

Can you construct an example where you think it would be?

Also, how would you measure Folding Equity?

Sorry to bring this thread back on topic.