I get fancy...

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Button is 31/23/1.5/45. MP is 48/11/.7/41

Krishan

[MAxx]

Seems highly questionable to me...the turn cr attempt seems kinda risky.

After checking and faced with two, it seems very close (to me) whether you should call two or 3bet. It's hard to say what will get you the most most often IMO.

I hope you auto raised the non pairing river, at least.

[Victor]

i like it a lot.

[imported_ncray]

If you are going to check the turn then why not check-3bet? MP is likely going to call. Button seems to have a clue based on his stats. No way he calls the raise if he doesn't have a flush and was bluffing. A J flush calls a raise, but might not call 2 back. He will never lay down the K here. If someone does have the K flush, they might give you some action based on your odd line.

What was your plan for the river?

I like it, sort of a variation on going for an overcall. If you 3-bet, the button will almost certainly fold the turn. You still get +1BB on the turn this way, but you also have 2 potential callers on the river.

[Drontier]

dislike strongly. How many players at 10/20 muck flushes? What if he has a set?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems highly questionable to me...the turn cr attempt seems kinda risky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? And I'm not being terse to be an idiot. I don't want to color your reaction.

[ QUOTE ]

I hope you auto raised the non pairing river, at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually board paired on the river and I autoraised anyway.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Button seems to have a clue based on his stats. No way he calls the raise if he doesn't have a flush and was bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is bluffing it doesn't matter if I 3-bet or not right? Either way I get nothing from Button. The advantage of calling is I get 1 more bet from weak flushes that will call down but not call 2 down. Also, despite the check raise, MP could still fold to a 3-bet from me.

Also, MP is going to lead the river near 100% of the time. I really don't think I'm going to miss a bet here by MP check calling the river.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
How many players at 10/20 muck flushes? What if he has a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Q1. None.

Q2. Which player? And how much does my line miss out on versus your line?

Krishan

[Drontier]

well, my line would be bet/3bet. but you discovered a very clever check, but i dont understand why u didnt 3 bet after. our lines net the same at the end(unless by miracle it goes raise, 3 bet behind and we cap). but if u had 3 bet, ur line would have been better. The player MP looks like he could have a set.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
well, my line would be bet/3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that you have the nut 1 card flush? This is going to go bet/raise basically never.

Krishan

I like it. You don't risk much on a whiff.

[imported_ncray]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button seems to have a clue based on his stats. No way he calls the raise if he doesn't have a flush and was bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is bluffing it doesn't matter if I 3-bet or not right? Either way I get nothing from Button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Either way you get nothing from button. But you get an extra bet out of MP.

If you have the button I don't mind the turn smoothcall, but since you don't have it I strongly prefer to 3-bet. It could make you up to an additional 4 BBs.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Either way you get nothing from button. But you get an extra bet out of MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Won't I get that bet out of him when I raise the river?

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have the button I don't mind the turn smoothcall, but since you don't have it I strongly prefer to 3-bet. It could make you up to an additional 4 BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be right. My plan was to cr a button bet. When MP check raised I just called on instinct. I didn't try and puzzle it out. I'm not sure how often I'm up against a set vrs how often I'm up against hands that will fold the turn 3-bet.

Krishan

[Drontier]

i think i wasnt clear in my original post. i meant taht i would be jamming bets in as the default line, but since u found a tricky check, and the action went bet/raise (hence most likely action in mine would be call/raise) you should be 3 betting, otherwise u net the same as mine. i know it rarely goes raise. sorry this sounds confusing.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? And I'm not being terse to be an idiot. I don't want to color your reaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

You check and the turn gets checked through. That would be bad if they would have called turn bets or would have raised turn bets...but instead it leads to missing bets.

For example-

1st position was waiting to cr you with K-high flush but this gets checked through. And or if Button had TP and would have called your bet, but not lead himself on the turn. Or if 1st position would not lead a set on the turn, but would of course call a turn bet.

That's what I meant by risky on turn whiffery....not getting bets or raises in that you would otherwise had you betout. Especially when we do not have a strong indication that the turn will not get checked through.

I do not think that you can automatically assume that you can make up the bets on the river, especially when you get sucked out on.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? And I'm not being terse to be an idiot. I don't want to color your reaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

You check and the turn gets checked through. That would be bad if they would have called turn bets or would have raised turn bets...but instead it leads to missing bets.

For example-

1st position was waiting to cr you with K-high flush but this gets checked through. And or if Button had TP and would have called your bet, but not lead himself on the turn. Or if 1st position would not lead a set on the turn, but would of course call a turn bet.

That's what I meant by risky on turn whiffery....not getting bets or raises in that you would otherwise had you betout. Especially when we do not have a strong indication that the turn will not get checked through.

I do not think that you can automatically assume that you can make up the bets on the river, especially when you get sucked out on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent response. The flip side is people are willing to bet/raise with weaker hands if I show weakness on the board. If I bet into the K high flush there is no guarontee he'll raise.

So yes if MP has the K I lose but if Button has the K I win. So that argument is a wash? I don't think the button would call with a non-flush hand. People don't call without a flush on multiway 4 flush boards. At least so far as I've seen. The argument that is most convincing is the set argument (It works as an argument for check 3-betting too) I am giving up equity from a set by checking.

I guess I just feel like I'm going to get more action from weaker flushes often enough to make up for it.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, MP calls.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP has Td Jd (two pair, tens and threes).
Hero has Jh As (flush, ace high).
Button has Js Ah (flush, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins 18.75 BB. </font>

Krishan

[Catt]

MP is pretty special.

[cartman]

In my opinion this debate over the turn check is heavily predicated on button not checking behind you. If there is much chance at all of him checking behind you (and without a read I would say there is), then checking looks like a mistake to me. Not only do you miss value from hands that would have called, but you miss the chance at a bunch of value from hands that would have raised. The additional value you gain when they bluff with hands that wouldn't have called is not enough additional reward to compensate for the risk of the turn checking through. Of course and as always I may be dead wrong.

Cartman

[elindauer]

You probably should have bet the turn, but since you didn't, the coldcall is the only play. A 3-bet is just too obvious, they can't possibly call you down. I'd donk the river for sure though, expecting to get at least one and maybe two confusion calls.

-Eric

[elindauer]

Oh man. When your opponents are this bad, does it even matter? :P

[elindauer]

You don't get raised very often when you hold the nut flush on a 4-flush board, so this argument doesn't hold much water with me (even after seeing this hand). On the other hand, with the doofus calling station MP in there, missing out on his potential calls is a crime. I bet the turn as well.

good luck.
eric

[OnkelHotte]

its a very bad play not to bet this turn!

[philnewall]

I love it, often a turn check here is a green light for button to steal and by doing this you totally change things up.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably should have bet the turn, but since you didn't, the coldcall is the only play. A 3-bet is just too obvious, they can't possibly call you down. I'd donk the river for sure though, expecting to get at least one and maybe two confusion calls.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response Eric.

I'd like to analyse this in more detail. First off my read on Button (extrapolated from stats) is that he is a little laggy. Postflop agression isn't abnormally high. Just a little loose and a little agressive preflop. I expect this player type to bet a ton of hands when I check to him.

First off he called the flop on a monotone flop. That means he either has a piece or a draw. When the 4th flush card hits, he will either fold his crappy made hands or call when I bet with his weaker flushes. If I check though, he will bet JQK flushes. I think if I bet he is even calling with the king high flush since I was a preflop 3-bettor and am a favorite to have an ace.

Now I admit, all this analysis doesn't include MP. And I agree that there are some hands he'll have that he'll call with if I bet (especially if I lose Button). So I do lose some value from him. But I'd like to argue not a ton.

If the turn checks around, that opens up Villians estimation of my range. They might call the river with hands what would have folded the turn. They might value bet or bluff-stab at the pot with nothing. And if a 5th spade comes they might call to split. These are secondary points though. The primary reason I think a check is good is because Button will bet lots of hands he wouldn't raise with.

Krishan

[elindauer]

Hi Krishan,

I don't remember all these reads about the button in the OP. If it was there, ok, I read it at like 2am. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I play very aggressively but if I was the button, I wouldn't bet any of the hands you mentioned, all the way up to the k-high flush (this is straight out of HPFAP if you want my logic).

If you know the button well and think he might take a final stab with a made hand that doesn't contain a flush etc then I like the check. I certainly like your thought process as it's solid and has you thinking about what they have and what they think you have etc etc... whatever you decide this hand is almost irrelevent, the important thing is your logic is great.

Having seen the results and what MP is willing to do with garbage (he did show one pair no spade, right?) missing a bet against this guy is a bigger mistake then normal, since he'll raise light and payoff with hands that can't possibly be good...

-Eric