150/300 hand

[bicyclekick]

Stox raises on the button. I call in teh SB with JTs, bb is lager and he's pretty solid for those who don't know him. He's kinda the pounding/semi-lag type but not a crazy. He sat down recently so nothing with him has really happened today.

He calls too.

Flop J75r

I check, lager checks, stox bets, I raise, lagger 3 bets, stox folds, I call.

Turn 2

I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.

River 7

I check planning on calling.

[DcifrThs]

with you and lager in the blinds, dont you think stox is raising a bit lighter than normal?

id 3bet JTs here to get lager OUT of the pot. he'll call with a lot here getting 5:1 and you dont want that. also, by 3betting, you will likely take the pot on the flop or turn w/ a bet due to stox's (possibly) perception of the tightness of the blinds that he is larcening.

as to the rest of the hand, flop is what id do (sometimes) turn/river combo is interesting though. you check raised the turn and checked the river. i think i see why you did that and it makes sense (kicker + raise possibility) but did you plan on folding to a 3bet on the turn? does he call turn checkraises to raise rivers w/ great hands? if so then i definately like your line but if he indeed bets here id say you're good a lot less than if you bet and he called....buuuuuuuuuut, calling the bet as less of a fav may be better than (more EV) than betting and having him call but also open up the possibility to a raise.

PS- these two recent posts about river play have just reinforced the concept that the river is now where the money is.

Barron

[DeeJ]

and the question is?

1. why didn't you 3-bet preflop - presume you'd prefer it if lager wasn't coming along? isn't this a big leak?
2. flop seems standard
3. turn raise seems light but against lager maybe it's worth trying to push him off 88/99/A7/K7
4. yes, c-c probably best.

my 2 cents /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bicyclekick]

Yeah soemtimes I call here sometimes I 3 bet. If my image really sucks and for some reason I haven't quit I'll fold but we're usually we're raising and sometimes we're calling.

[mscags]

I've never played with lager, but knowing that everyone says he is very aggro, I like this line a lot. Lots of things he could be three betting the flop with given the read on him. Turn play is great, but what are you doing if he three bets you here? Seems like if you get three bet he has to have at least two pair unless he really is that aggro. I like the river check call, by this point he isn't folding anything that you beat, and you certainly don't want to pay two bets to see a showdown IMHO. Nice hand BK.

Scags

[captZEEbo1]

I'm kinda curious about his tendencies here...would he bluff 89 of 46 on this river? Would he check behind something like J8?

[skp]

Someone, please explain why BK should checkraise the turn.

He checkraised the flop and then this Lager guy - a "pretty solid player" - 3 bets him on a J75 rainbow flop.

I certainly ain't going to be confident enough with JT to checkraise the turn particularly when it is a deuce because he will know that the card didn't hit BK. When BK checkraises the turn, his hand is most likely still 1 pair and he should know that. He therefore ain't dropping say A7. Worse, he might 3 bet and BK might fold. He certainly ain't dropping a Jack and if he has a Jack, chances are that his kicker is better than a Ten (i.e. he might have called preflop with J9 or J8 but probably not J6 and worse. He of course calls with JQ,JK, and JA).

Bk's hand is good enough for a showdown but I see no resaon to checkraise the turn other than simply trying to be aggressive without a purpose.

If BK wanted to maintain the riole of the aggressor, it's better to 4 bet the flop and follow up with a turn bet than it is to play possum on the flop and then come to life with a turn chcekraise.

If it turns out that BK's checkcall on the turn leads to the river going check check and BK wins...well, I wouldn't rue missing out on a raise on the turn. BK's hand and position simply dictated that result.

[RED_RAIN]

Talk about your turn thoughts

[Roman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda curious about his tendencies here...would he bluff 89 of 46 on this river? Would he check behind something like J8?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt he has a draw, wouldn't he want to keep stox in the pot if he did?

[Schneids]

skp you rock.

4-bet flop, or don't and call down.

[Paluka]

This is an interesting hand. I guess I don't really like the turn checkraise either. You want to puke if you get 3 bet, and you want to puke if he checks behind.

[imitation]

You just need to 4-bet the flop, I think that turn CR is over-agr for the point of being over-agr...I think you are much better of 3-betting preflop also, It's bad enough having 1 good player with position on you, don't make it 2, also standard comments about being the aggressor to win uncontested postflop.

Don't like it much sir not at all..

[Roman]

you also puke if he raises your bet... so what? I think there should be a better explanation for the best play here.

[Paluka]

I actually don't mind just calling preflop, but I've written about that before.

[flawless_victory]

ya, i just call here too...

dcifr, why do we want BB out?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i used to always be in the 3-bet or fold camp. but that was when i was a young overaggro kid. raising is fine. but so is calling here. i don't understand why people get so worked up about these kind of things.

[bicyclekick]

Thought about 4 betting the flop and I think it's probably correct. I went into calldown mode though.

My raise was one of those "oh I guess I change my mind I feel like I have the best hand actually and I wanna get more money in there and also even if it's pretty neutral EV i'd rather be playing aggressively like this saying don't mess with me I'm willing to put the preasure on with less that super sweet holdings.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Stox raises on the button. I call in teh SB with JTs, bb is lager and he's pretty solid for those who don't know him. He's kinda the pounding/semi-lag type but not a crazy. He sat down recently so nothing with him has really happened today.

He calls too.

Flop J75r

I check, lager checks, stox bets, I raise, lagger 3 bets, stox folds, I call.

Turn 2

I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.

River 7

I check planning on calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't like/get the turn play at all.

[DeeJ]

i know you asked barron but since I made the same point I will respond /images/graemlins/grin.gif

exec summary: pot equity
long version : if bb has suited connectors or similar eg 76s 97s 98o he isn't going to want to call 2. if bb has a weak Q/K(?A) like Q8 or K5 he isn't going to want to call 2. But 3 handed if he gets to call getting 5:1 (rather than 7:2) he will likely do so with these hands. If he hits the overcard to your J eg Q-rag-rag or K-rag-rag you are toast, but if you're heads up there is only half the chance that button has hit and you haven't. bb being in the pot also adds to the number of players who act behind, which doesn't help.

The counter argument you may be suggesting is that suited connectors like JTs play better multiway, which is true, but the choice isn't between 1 and 5 opponents, it's between 1 and 2.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
ya, i just call here too...

dcifr, why do we want BB out?

[/ QUOTE ]

DeeJ covered it pretty well but missed 2 points:

1) if the BB was a fish then i dont mind the call from the sb b/c his range is wider and the fish is libel to make some big mistakes. in this case, we want bb out now b/c he's solid.

2) 3betting, while more expensive, vastly increases your ability to take the pot w/ a bet when both miss completely.

Barron

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]

2) 3betting, while more expensive, vastly increases your ability to take the pot w/ a bet when both miss completely.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think checkraising a flop after just calling preflop actually shows more strength than 3 betting preflop. Now it looks like the flop actually hit you. Just calling from the small blind with JTs and then checkraising any flops that are at all decent for gives you a lot of fold equity in my opinion.

[pudley4]

checkraise and fold to a 3-bet.

Now can we get some results?