2/4: AK, A Free Showdown for QTip...

[SippinSoma]

I played this hand at ReadyEddie's house, so I don't have the exact history on me. Villain was a 30/10/2.5 type. I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty sure it's good.

I open with AKo from MP and it's folded to villain in the BB who calls.

Flop is JJ4r. Villain bets, I call.

Turn is a Q. Villain bets, I ask Eddie, "Are you ready for this?" and raise...

[Nick C]

Compared to calling down, we're charging ourselves to draw versus 66. (It's possible Villain won't fire with that again on the river, opting to check-call instead -- or maybe even check-fold, if he gets counterfeited.) And if Villain will fire the whole way with A7s, we'd prefer to let him keep doing that (though it wouldn't be a tragedy if he folded his kicker and chopping outs, especially since he might not really fire again). Also, there is some chance he's really got a jack and persistently going for a bet/3-bet line.

However, as compensation, I think you've got some good fold equity versus the marginal part of Villain's range. And, if behind, you could have as many as 16 outs.

I have trouble figuring out when to make free-showdown raises. I think I like this one, though.

[silkyslim]

a free showdown raise is good when:
1) there is a chance you have the best hand
2)you have some outs to improve to the best hand (therefore if they call you can fire on the river and win 3 bets instead of 2, but if you miss you still only pay 2 bets for the showdown: same as calling down)
3)FOLD EQUITY, villass might fold a lowpair or a hand that has 6 outs against you.

[MrEngenic]

I don't like it at all when the Q hits. I don't think you have much fold equity and you could have 10 outs = you can't fold to a 3bet. Just call down if you are not going to fold.

[SippinSoma]

[ QUOTE ]
a free showdown raise is good when:
1) there is a chance you have the best hand
2)you have some outs to improve to the best hand (therefore if they call you can fire on the river and win 3 bets instead of 2, but if you miss you still only pay 2 bets for the showdown: same as calling down)
3)FOLD EQUITY, villass might fold a lowpair or a hand that has 6 outs against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check, check, and check.

[hobbsmann]

A LC addition to the free showdown discussion that has been going on....

Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(2 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (4.00 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.00 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (7.00 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.00 BB.
Results in white below:<font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 3s 2s (a pair of sixes.)
Hero has Jd Qh (a pair of sixes.)
Hero wins 6.95 BB.
</font>

[The Goober]

Hobbs,

I think this is a terrible spot for this play. How often do you think that Q high is going to win at showdown? If you are going to semi-bluff this, I think you have to bet the river - wouldn't you feel foolish if he took the pot with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif? (yeah, I know you said LC... I'll stop now)

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobbs,

I think this is a terrible spot for this play. How often do you think that Q high is going to win at showdown? If you are going to semi-bluff this, I think you have to bet the river - wouldn't you feel foolish if he took the pot with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif? (yeah, I know you said LC... I'll stop now)

[/ QUOTE ]
Some thoughts on this hand as I actually like my play and think it is kind of interesting....we are playing HU so this guy is going to be open raising with all aces and most kings, thus I don't need to worry about him having Ax/images/graemlins/spade.gif or Kx/images/graemlins/spade.gif most of the time. The second thought is that given the board texture and the preflop action this guy has a flush draw or nothing SO often that Q high figures to be the best hand here a lot.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hobbs,

I think this is a terrible spot for this play. How often do you think that Q high is going to win at showdown? If you are going to semi-bluff this, I think you have to bet the river - wouldn't you feel foolish if he took the pot with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif? (yeah, I know you said LC... I'll stop now)

[/ QUOTE ]
Some thoughts on this hand as I actually like my play and think it is kind of interesting....we are playing HU so this guy is going to be open raising with all aces and most kings, thus I don't need to worry about him having Ax/images/graemlins/spade.gif or Kx/images/graemlins/spade.gif most of the time. The second thought is that given the board texture and the preflop action this guy has a flush draw or nothing SO often that Q high figures to be the best hand here a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops - I completely missed that this was heads-up. Given that, and your read that this guy is agressive enough to raise any K or A, then I like the play a lot.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a free showdown raise is good when:
1) there is a chance you have the best hand
2)you have some outs to improve to the best hand (therefore if they call you can fire on the river and win 3 bets instead of 2, but if you miss you still only pay 2 bets for the showdown: same as calling down)
3)FOLD EQUITY, villass might fold a lowpair or a hand that has 6 outs against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check, check, and check.

[/ QUOTE ]
yep that was my point. NH. i dont get this misconception that a free showdown play is only good if you can fold to a 3 bet. wouldnt you like to bet the river if you are going to fold to a 3 bet and just get called?

[PocketPaul]

I agree with Silky that this is an excellent free showdown raise.

An alternative line which I probably would have taken (possibly incorrectly) is to raise the flop, bet the turn and check the river.

I would be interested to hear what the advantages are of waiting until the turn to make the raise, instead of raising on the flop.

[SippinSoma]

Fold better hands more frequently.

[ QUOTE ]
NH. i dont get this misconception that a free showdown play is only good if you can fold to a 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[hobbsmann]

For those that are going to ask, no I don't normal open K9o this early I just lost track of how close I was to the button. FWIW I think this turn raise is a lot closer than the QJ high one.

Party Poker 15.00/30.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.67 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.33 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7.33 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.33 BB.
Results in white below:<font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Th Qh (a pair of fours.)
Hero has Kc 9s (a pair of fours.)
Hero wins 7.23 BB.
</font>

[Jake (The Snake)]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I think this turn raise is a lot closer than the QJ high one.


[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain why you think this Hobbs?

Edit: Nevermind, I agree with you now. I'd still like to hear what you think are the most important things to think about when applying the FSD in situations like this though if you could.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd still like to hear what you think are the most important things to think about when applying the FSD in situations like this though if you could.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preface: I'm drunk.



The simple thinking on this hand is that is HU situations reasonable players will check/raise top pair + monsters and donk bet draws and shity pairs. Thus (in this hand I was up against a semi-TAG) when decent players gaybet on drawy boards high card hands are so often going to be to good and thus I look to get quickly to showdown.

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]
a free showdown raise is good when:
1) there is a chance you have the best hand
2)you have some outs to improve to the best hand (therefore if they call you can fire on the river and win 3 bets instead of 2, but if you miss you still only pay 2 bets for the showdown: same as calling down)
3)FOLD EQUITY, villass might fold a lowpair or a hand that has 6 outs against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot the part about either being able to fold to a three-bet or being three-bet so rarely that it doesn't matter much (this means &lt; 3% of the time, not 10% of the time)

Will