Badly played hand? TT in MP to a raise

[thwang99]

5/10, tight table. Blinds stolen a lot, 1 or 2 players in for a raise usually. Just saw AA raise from EP and win the blinds, he then showed his hand.

Next hand, same player raises, another EP calls, I have TT and call to a flop of K78r.

EP1 bets, EP2 calls, I call.

Turn a J, I picked up a gutshot. EP1 checks, EP2 bets, I call, EP1 folds.

River a 2 (or some other unimportant card). EP2 bets, I fold. Comments?

- Tony

[JohnShaft]

I think you need to make your mind up on the flop.
Either one of them has a King or EP has an overpair to your Tens (and you're drawing to two outs) or you are ahead.
If you think you're ahead raise the flop, bet the turn, maybe check the river if you suspect because they called you're beat.

If you think one of them has you beat, and it looks like you are beaten in at least one spot, then I would consider folding right then. Yes it is only one small bet (in a 9 BB pot) but I think a bet on the Turn is almost guaranteed, and you still won't know where you are.

The problem of calling the little bet is you then get tempted into calling the turn bet. And you're only getting 6-1 to make the one card gutshot. And your two Tens outs are no longer that attractive.

Admittedly I might have called the flop bet if I wasn't sure I was beat, and I thought there would be a chance that they would also check the turn. But the turn call I don't think I make.

As for folding the river it is very likely you are beat but as you are now getting 8-1 it almost becomes a case of "once more into the breach" and calling again.

Hanging around can get expensive...

[Stu Pidasso]

Next hand, same player raises, another EP calls, I have TT and call to a flop of K78r.

You may very well have the best hand here. Then again, you may not. If you do have the best hand, It likely the raiser and EP caller both have draws that beat you. You should fold on this flop because the times you are beat, combined with the times your best hand gets outdrawn make seeing the river a negative proposition.

If EP2 folded when EP1 bet the flop, it very well could change your fold to a raise.

Stu

[Clarkmeister]

"5/10, tight table. Blinds stolen a lot, 1 or 2 players in for a raise usually"

3-bet preflop. There are times where your coldcall will be OK, but this table texture makes 3-betting the way to go. You'll almost certainly get it down to yourself and the other two players, and could easily get out some hands that you want to fold. Plus, you put the onus of making a hand onto the tightwads and let them react to you instead of you reacting to them. One of the biggest weapons of a super weak-tightish player (as your opponents are likely to be given the table texture) is the fact that their bets look so damn scary. Take that weapon away from him and make him worry about you rather than the other way around.

The hand plays a lot tougher when you are doing the reacting doesn't it? Think of how much easier this plays with initiative and momentum coupled with your position.

[lil']

You really don't know where you are here, because all you did was call.

[thwang99]

Hi JohnShaft,

Very good advice, I should have raised or folded the flop.

"The problem of calling the little bet is you then get tempted into calling the turn bet. And you're only getting 6-1 to make the one card gutshot. And your two Tens outs are no longer that attractive."

I still think the T outs are good, no reason to think EP2 had an 8.

[thwang99]

Ok, looking back a few days later, I think reraising PF would be the best move. Considering I called, raising the flop would be better than calling, with folding second. I don't like EP2's call on the flop to EP1's bet though, so maybe folding the flop would be better.

Now, say I reraised PF. And on the flop, EP1 bets, do I fold now? In any case, I would have more information by raising PF.
- Tony

[JohnShaft]

Maybe it's just me Tony but I don't think you can 3-bet PF (creating a 10 SB pot) and then fold to a single small bet on the flop. I just don't think you can make this fold based on one overcard. You might well be beaten but if you fold this quickly they're making money by betting into you *no matter what they have*.
At this point it starts to become a little less about "am I likely to be ahead" and a little more about investing 2 Big Bets, to win 5-7 Big Bets. Unless you know they will only bet when you're beat.


If EP1 bets, EP2 folds, I would raise the flop again. I'd probably bet the turn (especially if it wasn't an overcard) and maybe check the river. If EP2 calls, it's again a pretty tricky hand to play.

[thwang99]

Yes, 3betting PF and folding to one bet is awefully weak. A raise might be good just for image. In any case this isn't a good spot to be in (TT in MP to a UTG raiser with a K87 flop).

Actually I think the smartest move for me was to leave this game!