Is this why I still play 10/20?

[Nietzsche]

UTG is 40/15/2. I've only been at the table for an orbit and we are unknown to each other.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

I raised thinking I could fold to a 3-bet then started second guessing myself. Is this a lower heart/complete bluff/overplayed set often enough?

Is it better to just call to avoid this situation? Or is it all about discipline?

[geormiet]

It's so ugly, but I don't really see another way to play it (unless you fold to the river 3 bet, and I don't against an unknown getting 13:1 or what have you)

[Kharnage]

Raise/folding with second-nuts against an unknown getting 13:1 really isnt a good idea. I would just call this on every street, but I suck.

[Victor]

i think you played it fine.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you played it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

[wackjob]

I probably wouldn't raise the river. I think calling is fine here.

[wheelz]

weak wackjob, weak.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
weak wackjob, weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

calling has its merits since villain capped pf he is marked with big cards and it sucks to get 3bet bc we absolutely must pay this guy off.

still, our 2nuts has too much value against this guy bc he is paying off nearly any pair here.

[wackjob]

[ QUOTE ]
weak wackjob, weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

the repeated asskickings at 3/6 full lately have made me into a real weenie.

I'd just call the river against an unknown. A lot of unknowns are nancies on these boards and will check-call without the flush. The only flush he should have is the nut flush. I won't be folding. That makes it a call for me.

[Fantell]

I know we have the 2nd nut flush here, but what cards do people think he has if he 3 bets your river raise? Beyond putting him on a desperate bluff I don't see how we win when we call this. He'd have to have the T of hearts which means he's capping OOP PF with something like TT or AT?

Are you advocating the raise just because we'll be called with a weaker flush or a set often enough? If that's the argument, why the resistance to a bet/fold line?

Can someone explain this to me?

[wheelz]

well, when we raise we don't know that he's going to 3-bet. we raise because only one card in the deck can beat us and villain will pay off with anything. we call the 3-bet because the villain is too crazy and the pot now too big to fold for one more.

Why not raise his bet on the flop? He may fold if he's a mad LAG capping with TT, 99 preflop.

He may reraise with AK, KK or AA, in which case you know you are almost certainly beat. If he calls you, you know he has at least QQ. When the Q came on the turn you have even better reason to think you are beat and you could have folded.

But assuming you happened to call his bet on the turn and hit your flush on the river your raise is correct because he can't have a flush with Q set, K set, and AK (non heart), AA (non heart ace) and you're getting odds and those hands might payoff.

However once he re-raises you again on the river, there's no other hand he can have other than the nut flush. Even a very LAGgy LAG would not do it with 4 hearts on the board if they had a set. So I would say 13:1 would not be odds to call.

I think the flop-raise line would have saved you at least 1 BB. I don't think it's it's a discipline issue. I think about understanding the play, getting information on the opponents hand range cheaply, fitting it to the flop texture and looking at the odds.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise his bet on the flop? He may fold if he's a mad LAG capping with TT, 99 preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

We don't want him to fold TT or 99.

I think its worth doing that to save bets later on. I personally think the downside is far greater if he has a hand, than what you could gain from TT staying around and letting him go to showdown.

[kiddo]

This guy is raising less then me preflop and he is not more then a bit to aggressive postflop.

Still u think he will bet into a preflop3bettor on this river without a heart or that he somehow got a low flushcard in his hand but for some reason capped with it preflop?

I would guess he will have A in this spot more then any other hand and even if he call with anything if we raise (which he will not) he needs to have A less then 1/3 if we will pay him off when he 3bets.

I think we raise this river not because we think it through but because of exactly what u say: "weak wackjob, weak". It just feels to weak to not raise 2nd best hand.

[geormiet]

I hear what you are saying, but usually this logic is superseded by the fact that there is 1 card in 45 that we are afraid of.

[kiddo]

yep, thats my point, we raise cause only 1 card can beat us, not because we think

I think the raise/call is right on the river.

However, I'm saying if the hero reraised him on the flop, the decision making would have been easier on future streets. Especially if it was bet-raise-raise on the flop.
He may have saved a bet on the turn if the villain went for c/r. Or had the villain continued to bet into hero on the turn then the hero could fold without too much grief. In this case villain probably has a AhK or a set giving hero only 8 outs to a flush. Though the villain could have garbage my guess is if one took a prob average of the hand range and outcomes there wouldn't be equity for a call on the turn using this line.

On the other hand if it had been 3bets on the flop AND the hero decided to CALL the TURN bet AND it was bet-raise-raise on the river I think you could argue for a fold. See what I'm getting at using a flop raise??

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the raise/call is right on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, what is this. Another poster saying what he thinks and backing it up with zero arguments.

It feels a bit stupid saying it again, but my main point was that we raise this river without trying to find an argument for doing it other then: "Oh, look, only 1 card can beat us, he cant have that, can he???"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the raise/call is right on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, what is this. Another poster saying what he thinks and backing it up with zero arguments.

It feels a bit stupid saying it again, but my main point was that we raise this river without trying to find an argument for doing it other then: "Oh, look, only 1 card can beat us, he cant have that, can he???"

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey kiddo, c'mon don't laugh. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif While, I did make a glancing unsubstantiated statement in my first line, if you had read my entire post, my focus was looking at the line of raising the flop. That's the point I was discussing.

Btw your earlier post got cut off. Because of that people are going to make plenty of unsubstantiated statements. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[wheelz]

i think the argument is that he's obviously more likely to have a hand that isn't the nut flush, we think he's going to bet the river whether he has a flush or not, and he's likely paying off a raise with worse hands. if you don't think a 40/15/2 bets this river without a flush, fine, call. i think he does. i thought something like TT or 99 with a heart is possible too.

i like wheelz arguement about the TT and 99 with a heart, but i dont see any reason not to raise the flop. i think TT-77 caps PF, but none of them would 3 bet the flop, IMO. then check behind on the turn when you pick up the heart draw, and then AQ also gets there. then just flat call the river, when he comes out firing. i think that wins the most because any of those other hands would probably fold the turn, and some might fire out a bluff on the river. but should you decide to raise the river, you can fold to a 3 bet because the pot is smaller. it also gives you the opportunity to fold the flop when he 3 bets, if youd like. if you call 3 bets, then just call down because i dont think hes 3 betting anything but the Ah.

[bugstud]

the reason you don't raise the flop is to keep the retarded crap firing chips and not limiting his range to the stuff that beats you.

Once we get to the river, I think the line we take is right. Any heart, set, 2 pair, aa with no hear, blah blah blah pays off. Way too much value. I want to fold to the 3bet, but the only times I EVER have the fortitude to do it, I get shown 88 no heart and get oooooooooooooooo party poker typed into the chat. So yeah, at 10/20, don't fold.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
weak wackjob, weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

the repeated asskickings at 3/6 full lately have made me into a real weenie.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt know the people who got the preflop recommendations chart could lose at 3-6 full. You did get the chart, didnt you :P ?