blinds battle - set [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Isura

12-19-2005, 12:56 PM

New table. Villain has done stuff like minraise preflop, and bet small on the flop. But he hasn't shown down a hand. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($10.50)
Hero ($103.60)
BB ($172.75)
UTG ($75.45)
MP ($167.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, BB raises to $10, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($28) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $15, BB calls $15.

River: ($58) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $30

PoBoy321

12-19-2005, 12:57 PM

I really don't like the turn donkbet. Either 3-bet the flop or check/raise the turn. I generally 3-bet the flop.

GrunchCan

12-19-2005, 12:59 PM

Love it.

I want to ask what was your purpose for donking the turn? Did you do it to control the pot with a kind of blocking bet? Get value against an opponent you think will check-behind too often? Something else?

unlucky513

12-19-2005, 01:10 PM

i don't like it, i think any decent player will see thru your line and put you on a set.

3-bet the flop

Morrek

12-19-2005, 01:16 PM

I'd bet 7-8 on the flop, 2/3-3/4 on turn and something like that on the river too. You really look like you're trying to squeeze out as much as you can from an ace here, but I doubt he's noticing. I think you lost some value here by only betting half the pot.

12-19-2005, 01:40 PM

Check raise the turn; most of the time, I think villian is protecting an ace against a play that looks like a steal. You *must* have a read on opponent though, since a big CR might make him fold. Value, value, value!

unlucky513

12-19-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Value, value, value!

[/ QUOTE ]

i think OP has the "value" part of his game down, just look at the way he played the hand.

12-19-2005, 02:01 PM

Either I 3 bet Flop, or I check-raise Turn.

I also would make bets at least 2/3 pot sized. If he has an Ace, he's not folding to a potential steal.

Mercman572

12-19-2005, 02:37 PM

I like this line alot. 3 bet there is no reason for preflop, not many draws and it looks way to strong. Turn has too much of a chance of getting checked through vs an unknown for a c/r to be more profitable. I think this is the optimal line from this game theory perspective. Those that say the stop and go turn is too transparent, I think a 3 bet on the flop is much more so.

Mercman572

12-19-2005, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Love it.

I want to ask what was your purpose for donking the turn? Did you do it to control the pot with a kind of blocking bet? Get value against an opponent you think will check-behind too often? Something else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Value, we don't care to control this pot with middle set. Yes your logic is good, you can't assume a bet from an opponent on the turn just because he minraised the flop. (against an agro villain I'd c/r this)

12-19-2005, 02:53 PM

I wouldn't 3 bet the flop in this situation. What are we afraid of? Gutshots? Any decent villain will fold an A or worse here if we do. Call the raise, then either 3/4 to full pot on the turn, or go for the cr.

orange

12-19-2005, 02:53 PM

I like it. This is a fairly drawless board, so I'm ok with calling his raise. 3-bet is missing some value IMO. I like the stop-n-go. Just because villan raised doesn't mean he will do, say, a potsized bet on the turn.

If villan is a donkey with OP's read, he will probobly bet something like $5-$10 on the turn, in which case we will be missing value IMO.

ajmargarine

12-19-2005, 03:46 PM

I like it. Calling your turn play a donkbet is really an expansion of that word. You did bet over 1/2 pot after all. Donking the turn would be betting $3. 3-bet flop, or c/r turn says to villian his Ace is no goot. With your line he's likely to call you down with Ax. nh.

GrunchCan

12-19-2005, 04:09 PM

Back in the limit forums 'donkbet' (evolved from an earlier, less-PC term) was simply a euphamism for 'stop & go'.

4_2_it

12-19-2005, 04:10 PM

I like it. I would probably have lead the turn a little harder, but that's a nit.

Shame the guy overplayed his 44 /images/graemlins/grin.gif

ajmargarine

12-19-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Shame the guy overplayed his 44 /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Was thinking the same thing, but I had him on A4. All these rig3ed party hands I've been playing lately have got me seeing monsters everywhere.

Isura

12-19-2005, 07:57 PM

Thanks for the comments guys. As I mentioned, my initial read was that he was the minbetting type of guy. This was a blinds battle, and my flop bet probably looked weak, so I put him on Ax or a pocket pair. I didn't want to allow him to define his hand so well by 3-betting the flop, and I wasn't at all sure that he would bet the turn. I agree i need to bet a bit more on the turn. But I didn't expect him to call any more than 1/2 the pot on the river with Ax.

Results: He said he folded an ace on the river.

Maulik

12-19-2005, 11:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
New table. Villain has done stuff like minraise preflop, and bet small on the flop. But he hasn't shown down a hand. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($10.50)
Hero ($103.60)
BB ($172.75)
UTG ($75.45)
MP ($167.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, BB raises to $10, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($28) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $15, BB calls $15.

River: ($58) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $30

[/ QUOTE ]

Isura,

What is your plan if he re-raises all-in. I'd hate to make a difficult call here. Why not check/call. I don't want to give the villain a chance to take the pot down with a blocker against four straight board.

Maulik

12-19-2005, 11:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the turn donkbet. Either 3-bet the flop or check/raise the turn. I generally 3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

PoBoy321,
I really don't like flop 3-bet. It lets worse hands off too easy. We don't want to scare the Ax off. I really like the turn line, this isn’t a draw heavy board. Get some value!

Maulik

12-19-2005, 11:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I also would make bets at least 2/3 pot sized. If he has an Ace, he's not folding to a potential steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess most donks aren't. Good point /images/graemlins/cool.gif For some reason, I still like it though.

Isura

12-20-2005, 12:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Isura,

What is your plan if he re-raises all-in. I'd hate to make a difficult call here. Why not check/call. I don't want to give the villain a chance to take the pot down with a blocker against four straight board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call quickly. I'll pay of A4 every day of the week here.
If I check the river, I don't think he will bluff here. I would only check against an aggressive bluffing opponent, and even then I find villains don't like to bluff into 4 straight or 4 flush boards.

Mercman572

12-20-2005, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Isura,

What is your plan if he re-raises all-in. I'd hate to make a difficult call here. Why not check/call. I don't want to give the villain a chance to take the pot down with a blocker against four straight board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call quickly. I'll pay of A4 every day of the week here.
If I check the river, I don't think he will bluff here. I would only check against an aggressive bluffing opponent, and even then I find villains don't like to bluff into 4 straight or 4 flush boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on, as I said earlier I think you played this hand perfectly and you have a sound understanding of why. I'm not sure why you posted this except perhaps to show others an ideal line