Flop Broadway, Turn flushes. Now what?

[JohnShaft]

After waiting a long time for a decent hand to post I finally got just what I maybe didn't want, 3 in a row. Here's the first of them.

I've sat at a slightly loose, and in spots aggressive 3/6 table (with one player seeing every flop) for an hour. I have won one hand in 50. My image is obvious.

(a bit too loose) UTG limps, (a not very solid) EMP raises, it's folded round to me in the BB and I make perhaps my loosest call of the night with A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/club.gif Intending to CR him any Ace or Ten.

The flop comes Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif
Flopped the broadway straight, can't be bad. I bet out knowing I'll get action on this flop.
UTG instantly raises, PFR 3 bets, I cap. Happy now.

The turn is 3 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Ugh. Though does it matter?
I bet out. UTG raises me. PFR calls.

What's my action? (Now and the river)

[pufferfish]

Grit teeth, call turn.

River: if no fourth diamond, call it down and hope to split or better.

TC,
pf

[Clarkmeister]

3-bet

[Ed Miller]

I'd 3-bet. You don't really have any good reason to put one of your opponents on diamonds.

[rigoletto]

3-bet, UTG is not likely to be on a big draw with his flop raise (he would have called hoping for the PFR to raise for him). PRF probably has a set or AA - strike that, he has AK.

[JohnShaft]

I sat there and thought about it, and decided to 3-bet him because, with his instant flop raise, I just couldn't put him on a flush. I was putting him on a flopped two pair most likely. And I also figured that I could get another BB out of the PFR who I KNEW I had beat.

When UTG capped I went "Uh Oh".

I check-called the river and he turned over A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 :diamond.gif: and the turned flush.
I almost typed in the chat "how the [censored] could you raise that on the flop?".
[The PFR had KQs for a flopped top two.]

And, to think, I thought I was calling thin preflop, when I actually had the 'best hand'.

[Aces McGee]

Hi John

Not that I put him on that hand, either, but don't the members of this forum generally suggest strongly playing your draws? If so...UTG's play isn't all that bad. Also...could he have been raising the flop to see a free turn? Didn't work, of course, but he'd be getting the implied odds to call two more on the flop, right?

Comments appreciated.

Aces McGee

[rkiray]

I think you hit the nail on the head Aces. I would raise with his hand every time. Not only does he have a flush draw, he also has a gut shot. True it would only split the pot but he doesn't know that. If you only raise when you have a made hand you give away too much info, IMHO.

[JohnShaft]

Well yeah I see your point. I suppose he thinks he has a further 3 outs (if a 10 hits) to the probable best hand.

But raising flush draws right after a bettor doesn't make much sense to me. The only reason the play isn't as bad as it seems is that *for this hand* he is unlikely to fold the PFR with his raise. But he MAY have gotten ME to fold to the PFR's *very likely* 3-bet, thus considerably harming his drawing odds.

I see people raise a bettor with a draw on the flop making others fold and it is just a BAD play. It isn't as simple as "play your draws aggressively".

So I don't think he played the hand well, as, has been mentioned he would have been better calling, waiting for the PFR to raise, and then he could have 3 bet or capped.
I also think it's a borderline 3-bet/cap on the flop if he didn't have the gutshot straight draw. Why? He's 2-1 to make his flush, and is getting at best 2-1 on his money, and maybe knocking someone out. Not to mention that if any big card hits he could well be dead to PFR's boat.

I think limping UTG with A2s, in a mostly non-loose table, isn't a great idea either...
The (speed of his) bet makes me think it was more a case of "I flopped a four flush - RAISE" rather than considering if he was killing his action...

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to advocate the 3-bet though.

[rkiray]

I agree with you that he should have folded preflop.

But remember from his perspective both the flush and straight draws are nuts draws. Since they are both nut draws I think I would almost always raise with them. If I kill the action, it's not that bad. Especially if both people fold either the flop or to a turn bet. Since you were playing so tght, he might think that you would fold here. Or if his raise got the other guy out, he would have the option to taking a free card to his draws on the turn. The more I think about this hand, the clearer it is to raise on the flop.

[JohnShaft]

I agree somewhat Rick but really there was no way he was going to win this pot with both of us folding. The PFR was pretty much guaranteed to have called this down based on his PF raise and the flop (and being a typical "I've got something, I call no matter what" 3/6 player).
Hell he called it down with 2 pair, for 4 bets on the turn...
So there was also no way he was going to get a free card.

So the best he was going to do was to get even money in, the worst was playing this pot headsup against the PFR having to hit something (and not have the other guy hit).

I admit though, while I don't like the play, it isn't quite as bad as it seemed once I had time to think it through. Especially considering most of the posters here 3-bet him, giving his nuts all the action he could want...
That's the part of his play I like.

[felson]

I would three-bet and call down if there was any more action.

[Mike]

Here's a clear way to see it. Your hand is made on the flop, the flush draw is just that, a draw. As you hold mumerous broadways over the next decades against a draw, remember you are the favorite to win the hand as your hand is made, not the flush draw. Now with that out of the way.... Don't you let a draw get to the river cheaply. Make em pay!

On a side comment, as for the UTG's 'instant raise', if he was running a bluff, how should it look? How would you do it, any different?

[bernie]

maybe he also figured he wouldnt knock out the PF raiser...he figured he'd come along for the ride. not to mention if he happens to knock out another player having a gutshot. the guy with only the gutshot certainly isnt getting odds to call this raise.

in that case, it's a win-win for him. he's about even money on the flush alone, not to mention freerolling if the str8 hits and the PFR also catches it along with you having it. he'd be more than happy to be capping the turn at that point. though that's alot of aces out, but it can happen. and some idiots will call with the bottom end.

"I see people raise a bettor with a draw on the flop making others fold and it is just a BAD play. It isn't as simple as "play your draws aggressively"."

if this draw had less dynamic to it, id agree with just calling. however, sometimes this is also a good raise with a high overcard to knock out a better kicker should your overcard hit. though that isn't much a factor here...with all the zone cards and all...

"So I don't think he played the hand well, as, has been mentioned he would have been better calling, waiting for the PFR to raise, and then he could have 3 bet or capped.
I also think it's a borderline 3-bet/cap on the flop if he didn't have the gutshot straight draw. Why? He's 2-1 to make his flush, and is getting at best 2-1 on his money, and maybe knocking someone out. Not to mention that if any big card hits he could well be dead to PFR's boat."

if the PFR has 2 pair or a set, he's not folding. though a 2 pair is preferrable for him to have. the PFR also may not raise behind him.

i think he played it fine. if he hit the str8 on the turn, how would you have played it? get in a raise war with him? (see the freeroll deal mentioned above)

the turn 3 bet...

this is player dependent to me. sometimes id do it, sometimes i wouldnt. id be crying calling. based on what i think he'd raise with in this situation with a flush possible and me betting into him. that flush card is just as scary to him as it is you. now if he was the type to overplay a little in this situation and get tricky and maybe bluff on that card thinking all your flop action that you didnt have the flush...then i may 3 bet. but ive found many players will slow down once a 'big' type hand is possible and will only raise with at least a flush....and many slow down on the big streets.

not all, but some. knowledge of players helps here. i certainly dont see it as an auto-bet even if it is a 3 way pot. this is like saying all players who play shorthanded know how to play it. many dont. they still play like a full ring game only betting stronger hands, and only seeing what is possible on the board regardless of how few players may not have something, yet they will bet the same way. meaning, only if they hit their hand.

just some stuff...

b

[bernie]

if he knew that hed get mass action on the turn from 2 players if he hit his hand, he's more than correct to jam this flop. especially when his opponents may be drawing near dead or dead. this can also more than make up for his loose preflop call....

b

[Joe Tall]

Re-raise. No reason to think loose-cannon UTG just made a flush, he may have a High /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif but I'd 3-bet here.

If they call, bet out on the river, if he caps and a /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif hits the river, check/call.

[rkiray]

Can this hand stand a raise behind it? /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

Actually I guess it did. But I sure wouldn't have been happy when the raise went in.

[elysium]

hi john
call and check-call the river.

[bernie]

"can this hand withstand a raise behind it?"

if there were alot of callers it could /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
this is a case where a preflop mistake is small compared to postflop. unless one routinely plays terrible preflop. then it adds up to a nice big leak. hindsight (even though the player probably didnt think this way) look at the EV preflop compared to the turn with someone betting into him drawing dead. however, that can only really be looked at after the fact.


"I've sat at a slightly loose, and in spots aggressive 3/6 table (with one player seeing every flop) for an hour. "

actually, it doesnt sound like that aggressive enough of a game to not try and limp once in awhile with it. he just happened to get caught this time. if the game was more aggressive, then id be less inclined to play this preflop.

"I have won one hand in 50. My image is obvious. "

just a note about this line (original post also)

you shouldnt be too suprised at how some will completely miss what you think they read you as. some are real clueless. this could mean they see you as tight, weak tight, losing, not a threat, maybe a threat since selective about hands preflop...and many more. one way to test your image? raise it and see how the action goes. however, one hand doesnt make a pattern to see how other players view you. if you get involved in a few hands, and recieve little/minimal action during those hands other than if your opponents mix it up with much better hands than they do against others at the table, THEN you can pinpoint your image a little more.

im still wondering where the players advocating the 3 bet are seeing the description of this players tendency to overplay on a board like this on the turn. all's the description said was 'a little loose". says nothing about his aggressiveness or possible penchant for pushing hands.

hmmm...

b