Hand against Chufty - interesting situation

[punter11235]

"Book" hand. Chufty probably has the same str8 as I do or he catched some good draw (like set + flush draw, or maybe only 2flushdraws). I have str8 + double flush draw so I thought I am freeroling on the turn.
River card is interesting, I have trouble imagining Chufty's hand which now made fullhouse on the other hand he makes many loose calls so its possible. The problem with calling is that we're often splitting so I call 1100 to get only a half of the pot which is not good deal. Your move ?

PokerStars Game #3375543669: Omaha Pot Limit ($10/$20) - 2005/12/19 - 04:58:59 (ET)
Table 'Fennia' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: CHUFTY ($25241.20 in chips)
Seat 2: SamENole ($2712 in chips)
Seat 3: soora ($797 in chips)
Seat 4: bluecalm ($1940 in chips)
Seat 5: AmuLeto ($1200 in chips)
Seat 6: POKER JIGGA ($1107 in chips)
Seat 7: adieutoptwo ($460 in chips)
Seat 8: Black Sea ($1374 in chips)
AmuLeto: posts small blind $10
POKER JIGGA: posts big blind $20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluecalm [T/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
adieutoptwo: folds
Black Sea: calls $20
CHUFTY: calls $20
SamENole: calls $20
soora: calls $20
bluecalm: calls $20
AmuLeto: calls $10
POKER JIGGA: checks
*** FLOP *** [2/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif]
AmuLeto: checks
POKER JIGGA: checks
Black Sea: checks
CHUFTY: checks
SamENole: checks
soora: checks
bluecalm: checks
*** TURN *** [2/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif] [Q/images/graemlins/club.gif]
AmuLeto: checks
POKER JIGGA: checks
Black Sea: checks
CHUFTY: bets $137
SamENole: folds
soora: folds
bluecalm: raises $411 to $548
AmuLeto: folds
POKER JIGGA: folds
Black Sea: folds
CHUFTY: calls $411
*** RIVER *** [2/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif] [Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif]
CHUFTY: bets $1100

[fuzzbox]

Ahhh, defeated by position (or right to first bluff).

I dont know this chufty, but can he have A/images/graemlins/club.gifx/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif or something?

I cant call that (well actually I can, but whenever I do, I lose).

PS - a bet on the flop is good here ... no?

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
a bet on the flop is good here ... no?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think its bad. Its 7 ppl to the flop chances that somebody is going for checkraise on this flop are just too big. I think checking and taking a free card is much better.

[Tilt]

There are two possibilities where he takes this line. One is that he he went for the c/r on the flop with a set, but when the turn made a straight he also picked up a flush draw so he bet anyway.

The other is that he he has a red straight, is afraid of the freeroll on the turn, but then figures that paired board didn't hit you and bets it out.

I think its the second situation most of the time. Set + flush draw is just a lot rarer probabilistically speaking, plus the chances that he didn't just bet out on the flop with a set + backdoor flush draw makes that scenario even less likely. I don't think he has two pair + straight, as he likely would have raised that combo preflop or reraised you on the turn.

I think he is betting the scare card here ~70% of the time, I just don't know whether thats often enough to call. Calling has some metagame benefits however, so I am leaning toward that.

[joewatch]

When I see this

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 1: CHUFTY ($25241.20 in chips)


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm flat calling, or even folding the turn. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
When I see this

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 1: CHUFTY ($25241.20 in chips)


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm flat calling, or even folding the turn. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That is one sick stack. How frequently do those guys run up such monster stacks? and how many buy-ins on average does it take to do so?

[punter11235]

C'mon guys. Its PokerStars. REBUY trick.

[ QUOTE ]
C'mon guys. Its PokerStars. REBUY trick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never played on that site. Is this "trick" legal, or just some bug that PStars hasn't fixed, allowing for intimidation tactics to be exploited?

[Acesover8s]

When I see this,

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 1: CHUFTY ($25241.20 in chips)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm never sitting down at the table. . .

[BluffTHIS!]

The "trick" is that when you are allin, you can quickly rebuy for the max buyin which in the case where you win the pot in question, is added to your stack, artificially increasing it. I see this in no limit all the time, where some regular players upon the first time they get AA/KK/AK just open push and do the trick so that they can stack players who already have built up a stack.

While it might be considered a loophole, and even though I don't do it, there is nothing wrong with it IMO. And the trick can save you from missing a hand when you are allin and lose, since PS doesn't have the software first wait for you to rebuy like UB does.

On PS you can rebuy when you drop below the max buy-in even if you still have live chips in the pot. It's a relatively easy way to quickly get a 200 or 300 BB stack (depending on whether or not your bet gets called, etc.).

A 1200 BB stack like this is another matter. This is pot limit so you can't get 1000BB in the pot very easily, and you still have to drop well below 100BB before you can re-buy. I wouldn't be surprised if as much as $6000 of that stack comes from this kind of trick, but most of it must be legitimate winnings.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm never sitting down at the table. . .

[/ QUOTE ]

a)I dont think that big stack have any advantage in pot limit (I think opposite is true)
b)I dont think Chufty in particular has edge over me.

The table had some other fishes so even if Chufty is better than me it is worth sitting down /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[joewatch]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think that big stack have any advantage in pot limit (I think opposite is true

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have to strongly disagree there since I've seen the damage super-big stacks can do.

It's no big deal if you are playing shortstacked (around 50bb), and don't mind losing it all, but say you are playing a normal-sized stack like the OP. A bet which is 50% of your stack may only be 3% of the super-big stack. That is a huge psychological advantage.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
That is a huge psychological advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you or other players allow yourselves to be intimidated by it and play even more weak-tight.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
That is a huge psychological advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

It shouldnt be if you are playign within your bankroll and have even bigger stack in your account ready to realod.
Seriously if bigger stack has psychological edge over you its your problem. I think that smaller stack should have advantage cause its only xx to call and bigger stack must worry about other big stacks at the table and cant "just go allin"

[beset7]

Yeah CHUFTY was on a tear yesterday. Between stars and party I think he had about 60K in play at one point (I was bored multi-tabling NL and sweated some of the big omaha games for a while).

I think you should fold the river barring some kind of read. Does he like to push you around? Have you been folding lots of rivers? Do you raise the turn with draws a lot? etc. Also, CHUFTY, in my limited experience and from sweating, would not smooth call the turn very often with the same straight. I think this is either a bluff or you are screwed. That's why playing with these guys has can turn into an expensive ass game of rock, scissors paper.

[Big Dave D]

I would be interested as to why you think b) is the case.

Also, the way PLO is played now online, there is no way to avoid the good players...its just gonna happen. Which this hand showed. And this is much more true of CHUFTY than any other of the good players in that game.

gl

dd

[punter11235]

I folded. I now think its good decision. Thank you all for answers.

To BigDave : of course CHUFTY is very good but he is making donkey plays sometimes as everybody else. I am young and have big ego this probably explains b) :-) I admit I recently dont play that good so I am starting to have some doubts about b).

Best wishes

[Big Dave D]

Punter,

The reason I said this was kinda subliminal. I *knew* from seeing you around that you are mostly a NL holdem guy. Most NL folk couldnt judge a good plo player from a bad one on the best of days. Even very good NL holdem players struggle at PLO, and often really underestimate what the PLO players are playing like. The games are that different. In fact we had a thread the other day here, where even experienced PLO players were talking about how hard it was to seperate LAGs from fish.

Now all of this may not be the case for you even in the slightest. You may have been playing PLO man and boy. In wish case I apologise.

But.

If I was a NLHE player, even a great one, I would sit with a very very open mind about who is and who isnt any good at a PLO table.

good luck

dd