meta-game makes 4 malicious monetary matters [meticulous memoirs]

[Schneids]

Shifting between 2 handed to 4 handed. There is one guy who kinda sucks and keeps sitting out because the 4th guy sits back in when he does, so we play a few hands 4 handed, then the sucky guy sits out and the other guy sits out, then the sucky guy sits back in a few minutes later. Anyway, at this point, it's just become 3-handed again as one of the two sits back in.

There is some meta-game that leads up to my hand in question.

We are both playing super aggro at times, and not believing eachother. I've lost $7000 in the last 5 minutes. He probably thinks I'm tilting. I'm pretty sure he is tilting even though he's on a quick rush.


At 18 minutes after the hour, this hand occured:

wollow: posts small blind $75
PurplHaze: posts big blind $150
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to d0000d [8h 8s]
Axlmania: folds
Devman: raises $300
d0000d: raises $450
Lead1ng: folds
wollow: calls $375
PurplHaze: folds
Devman: calls $150
----- FLOP ----- [9h 5d Jh]
wollow: checks
Devman: checks
d0000d: bets $150
wollow: calls $150
Devman: calls $150
----- TURN ----- [9h 5d Jh][Jd]
wollow: checks
Devman: checks
d0000d: bets $300
wollow: calls $300
Devman: calls $300
----- RIVER ----- [9h 5d Jh Jd][3d]
wollow: checks
Devman: checks
d0000d: bets $300
wollow: raises $600
Devman: folds
d0000d: folds
Returned uncalled bets $300 to wollow
wollow: doesn't show hand
wollow collects $3447 from Main pot


At 19 minutes after teh hour, this hand occured:

d0000d: posts small blind $75
Lead1ng sits out
wollow sits out
PurplHaze: posts big blind $150
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to d0000d [2c 7h]
Axlmania: raises $300
d0000d: folds
PurplHaze: calls $150
----- FLOP ----- [6d 9s 6h]
PurplHaze: checks
Axlmania: bets $150
PurplHaze: calls $150
----- TURN ----- [6d 9s 6h][Ts]
PurplHaze: checks
Axlmania: bets $300
PurplHaze: raises $600
Axlmania: calls $300
----- RIVER ----- [6d 9s 6h Ts][8h]
PurplHaze: bets $300
Axlmania: raises $600
PurplHaze: calls $300
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Axlmania: shows [Js Qh] (A Straight, Queen high)
PurplHaze: mucks hand [7s 4s]
Axlmania collects $3372 from Main pot


At 20 minutes after the hour, this hand occurred:

d0000d: posts small blind $75
PurplHaze: posts big blind $150
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to d0000d [Jh 4s]
d0000d: raises $225
PurplHaze: raises $300
d0000d: calls $150
----- FLOP ----- [Th 3d 4d]
d0000d: checks
PurplHaze: bets $150
d0000d: raises $300
PurplHaze: calls $150
----- TURN ----- [Th 3d 4d][6d]
d0000d: bets $300
PurplHaze: raises $600
d0000d: calls $300
----- RIVER ----- [Th 3d 4d 6d][5c]
d0000d: checks
PurplHaze: checks
----- SHOW DOWN -----
d0000d: shows [Jh 4s] (A Pair of Fours, Jack high)
PurplHaze: shows [6c Kc] (A Pair of Sixes, King high)
PurplHaze collects $2697 from Main pot



Still at 20 minutes after the hour, this hand occurred:

PurplHaze: posts small blind $75
d0000d: posts big blind $150
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to d0000d [9c Kd]
PurplHaze: raises $225
d0000d: calls $150
----- FLOP ----- [4s 9d Jh]
PurplHaze: bets $150
d0000d: calls $150
----- TURN ----- [4s 9d Jh][5h]
PurplHaze: bets $300
d0000d: calls $300
----- RIVER ----- [4s 9d Jh 5h][Ts]
PurplHaze: bets $300
d0000d: calls $300
----- SHOW DOWN -----
PurplHaze: shows [Jd 5s] (Two Pairs, Jacks and Fives, Ten high)
d0000d: mucks hand [9c Kd]
PurplHaze collects $2097 from Main pot


still at 20 after, this hand occurs:

d0000d: posts small blind $75
PurplHaze: posts big blind $150
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to d0000d [7s 5d]
d0000d: raises $225
PurplHaze: raises $300
Devman joins the table at seat #3
d0000d: calls $150
----- FLOP ----- [Ac 7h As]
d0000d: checks
PurplHaze: bets $150
d0000d: raises $300
PurplHaze: raises $300
d0000d: calls $150
----- TURN ----- [Ac 7h As][6c]
d0000d: checks
PurplHaze: bets $300
d0000d: raises $600
PurplHaze: calls $300
----- RIVER ----- [Ac 7h As 6c][3h]
d0000d: bets $300
PurplHaze: calls $300
----- SHOW DOWN -----
d0000d: shows [7s 5d] (Two Pairs, Aces and Sevens, Six high)
PurplHaze: shows [9h 9c] (Two Pairs, Aces and Nines, Seven high)
PurplHaze collects $3597 from Main pot


At 21 after, this hand occurs:

d0000d: posts small blind $75
PurplHaze: posts big blind $150
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to d0000d [Ks 3c]
Devman: folds
d0000d: raises $225
PurplHaze: raises $300
d0000d: calls $150
----- FLOP ----- [7d 3d Kd]
d0000d: checks
PurplHaze: bets $150
d0000d: raises $300
PurplHaze: raises $300
d0000d: calls $150
----- TURN ----- [7d 3d Kd][Qh]
d0000d: checks
PurplHaze: bets $300
d0000d: raises $600
PurplHaze: calls $300
----- RIVER ----- [7d 3d Kd Qh][3s]
d0000d: bets $300
PurplHaze: calls $300
----- SHOW DOWN -----
d0000d: shows [Ks 3c] (A Full House, Threes full of Kings)
PurplHaze: mucks hand [Ah 8h]
d0000d collects $3597 from Main pot




FINALLY, TO THE REAL HAND:


1 fold. I raise QdQs, he calls in the BB.

----- FLOP ----- [3h 9c Th]
I bet, he calls.


----- TURN ----- [3h 9c Th][8h]
I bet, he raises, I 3 bet, he 4 bets, I call.
...I seriously contemplated 5 betting given those range of hands above.


----- RIVER ----- [3h 9c Th 8h][3c]
I check, he bets.
...Can anyone raise? I called.

[Schneids]

btw i already know everyone is going to hate 1-2 of those other hands that built up to it, but even a day later i'd still make the same decisions in each. so please refrain from commenting about spraying excessively with the 75. thx /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
btw i already know everyone is going to hate 1-2 of those other hands that built up to it, but even a day later i'd still make the same decisions in each. so please refrain from commenting about spraying excessively with the 75. thx /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should have a thread devoted to at least 1 or 2 of those other hands. I would love to know what you were thinking...

[flawless_victory]

i would raise

[etizzle]

I think we can rule out 2 hands: a flush, and QJ, as I think he always raises these on the flop (let me know if thats off).

So that leaves us the two pair hands that we beat, J7, 67. I dont think hes in there with T3 or 93 etc and he would be highly likely to reraise 88-TT preflop unless he's one of those guys that never reraises HU OOP.

If we give some extra weight to the two-pair hands it might become a c/r. He is a more likely to just call on the flop with hands like T9 and 98 then J7 or 67.

I think its close but I would just call here too. Obviously he had T8 or JT cuz you posted it but I think you made the right play.

[ALL1N]

I think it's really unlikely he doesn't raise twopair on the flop to exploit the image he's just worked up with A8 and to an extent 99, which means (assuming he checks behind 98 on the end) I find it hard to see that the 3 changes matters. I'm fine here with a call.

[flawless_victory]

the thing is, he "seriously considers" fivebetting the turn, then catches his v best card on the river...
i would raise.

[ALL1N]

The way I read it, the 5-bet would be to punish the guy for getting frisky with a big draw/pair+draw that's not going to bet the river. Once we've checked on the river, and he's bet, raising doesn't appear to achieve anything, because the big draw folds and the pair+draw checks behind the river instead of betting. I'm not against betting out on this river, but once we've checked, I don't like a CR much.

[etizzle]

the thing is, the pair+draw often doesnt check, and there are a few 2 pairs out there.

its close.

[thatpfunk]

Hand 2 he raises the turn w/ his FD+gutshot. It seems like he might take a pair + 1-card FD for a few bets on this turn (Qh 8x, Kh 8x don't seem unreasonable).

I think you can raise.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
the pair+draw checks behind the river instead of betting

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is necessarily true. Given the history, I'm not even sure it's likely.

[mike l.]

you stopped at the right time and i think you lose this hand to a flush. in the other hands the guy is loose but he's got legit hands when the bets start going in and he even backs down too soon on a couple hands. the only hand i didnt like was where you had K9 preflop and didnt 3 bet.

[thatpfunk]

mike,
you don't think he would raise this flop w/ a FD?

[wheelz]

after not 3-betting preflop, you don't raise postflop in the K9 hand either?

[phish]

Didn't read thru your entire post. Too much. But I'm a little surprised you folded the first hand.

[DrSavage]

I might've raised in the heat of battle but now i think that the call is better. Since he didn't reraise preflop I think 2 pair that we theoretically beat now is more likely to contain a 3.

[baronzeus]

I like them all except the 75o hand (turn raise is pointless IMO, except to fold out a better 7, but people never fold those), and I raise the last hand. Edit: although, I don't think you should if you can't fold to a 3bet, but you are ahead at least 50% of the time IMO. The only thing that makes me not want to raise is that I'm afraid he might have some garbage draw that can't call a raise.

[cartman]

I think you played it perfectly. I am a little confused by the combination of his preflop and flop calls, but his turn explosion followed by his willingness to bet the river even though the 3 paired convinces me that a checkraise on your part would be a bad idea. I think the important river choice is whether to donk when the 3 paired. Unless can narrow his hand to specifically two pair or a pair plus a draw (and I certainly can't), then checking was better than donking in my opinion.

For what it's worth, I would have played the 75 hand exactly the way you played it. Although I never play heads up, in a 6-max context I would also have taken a passive line with the K9 hand although I am usually in the minority when it comes to similar situaions. Can you explain your reason playing the K9 the way you did?

Thanks,
Cartman

[mike l.]

"you don't think he would raise this flop w/ a FD?"

not necessarily. seems like villain plays fairly erratic/random. i could go through and pick out spots but you could probably find them yourself. villain can also have a straight pretty easily.

[tongni]

Would have been a nice checkraise on the river. I think important things to note are:

Even if he has a flush or straight, you probably aren't going to get 3bet on this river.

It's almost impossible he's full on this river.

I assume he had something like T8o or something. I think 5betting on the turn is a mistake, but a river checkraise is probably in order. To all the people who write "Well he would have raised this on the flop", that's not really a great way to hand read because I'm sure he can play the same hand both ways.

[wheelz]

i would really like to know why neither schneids, mike l, or baronzeus raise postflop with that K9 hand. you just called preflop, you have 2p2k HU... are you trying to let him keep bluffing or something? i just don't get it.

[baronzeus]

I'm in position, and I have the power to make sure a bet goes in on every street. I really don't want to get 3bet, and I really want to go to showdown. Finally, I want to put him in a really tough spot on the turn and river when I flat call the last street.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
i would really like to know why neither schneids, mike l, or baronzeus raise postflop with that K9 hand. you just called preflop, you have 2p2k HU... are you trying to let him keep bluffing or something? i just don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll get to this thread some more in a day, but this one I can quickly answer:

I wanted to just call call call so in upcoming hands I would raise when I had something, because I wanted him to think I was falling into a pattern of calling when I have something and raising when I have nothing. To an extent this worked I think, if you notice how big of a pot I won with my K3 and he only had A8 high (also relating that to the 75 hand, which looks like spraying, I thought he would call me down with lower PP's as well as K-high. Plus I wasn't sure whether or not he'd fold any better hands, so it could be taken as a value-bluff where I really have no clue what I'm doing, but it's def more than spraying without a purpose).

Plus yes, I had nothing wrong with continuing to let him bet if he had little.

Finally, this is me giving myself too much credit surely, which I like to do, but I really thought his bet timing on the turn felt like he was looking to 3-bet if I raised in that K9 hand.

[wheelz]

cool, thanks.