A7soooooted. play along? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

12-18-2005, 11:55 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero ...

hobbsmann

12-18-2005, 11:57 PM

folds.

imported_smoove

12-19-2005, 12:04 AM

calls and hopes for a great flop. too much money in that pot.

ChuckyB

12-19-2005, 12:09 AM

With 4 for sure and possiblly 6 opponents in this hand I think you COULD call. However you have to fold everything except a flush.

Even if you flop a 4-flush it's going to be expensive to chase...you're OOP, and a paired board could screw you all over the place.
If you were on the button, it would be easier to take a shot pre-flop because you'd know how many people are committed to the pot and if you'll have enough equity.

If you know you'll flop a flush, or quad-7s or a full-house, yes. Otherwise, no.

12-19-2005, 07:00 AM

I thought it was extremely marginal, if good at all, to call the 3-bet. Given that UTG called, I figured the pot would get huge. I wasn't thinking about the cap.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero ...

12-19-2005, 07:26 AM

I'd fold preflop, but since we're looking at a flop I'll give my thoughts on that. I think you should call here. Given the size of the pot, I doubt raising protects your hand here, and I think it'll rarely fold out any hands with live outs.

Raising will also inflate the pot and make it impossible to protect your hand on the turn, should a safe card fall. This is particularly true if BB 3-bets, which is very likely given that villain bet into a field of 7.

I think the turn decision will provide some interesting discussion.

UCLAseetoK

12-19-2005, 08:11 AM

A7s UTG+1 is limpable? According to SSHE this is a fold (unless of course the game is especially loose passive).

Lets assume worst case scenario here on the flop from where the action leaves off, assuming Hero calls. MP1 and 2 fold behind, MP3 2-bets, BB 3-bets, UTG FOLDS. At this point, there are 28.5 SB in the pot and its 2 more SB for us to call. However, lets assume at this point we know its getting capped on the flop by MP3 behind us. So our effective call to pot size amount is going to be calling 3 more SB for a pot size of 31.5 SB. So worst case scenario after we call the first bet on the flop, is that pot is laying us 10.5 to 1. If we assume 2 live outs for the 7's (could be dead to 66 or 22, but unlikely?) and one out for the nut BDFD, then we have 3 outs. Here I've assumed that the Ace is not enough of an out to be considered significant. We need 14.3 to 1 to call with only 3 outs... and this assumes even that we are not forced to call a capped turn. I don't believe implied odds here can make the odds here in our favor, as pot size is significantly large already...

So does this make it a fold on the flop?

12-19-2005, 08:22 AM

The game was actually very loose passive (something like 38/5), and A7s is much better than A2s.

I think you're being too restrictive with the A outs. I don't see any use in discounting all of them, unless we are specifically against AA, which is unlikely. We have 2 outs to reverse dominate another A. Maybe you're assuming that every A is out there? I think 2 outs is the minimum for the A, making at least 5 outs total. I think it would be extremely incorrect to fold this flop ever.

UCLAseetoK

12-19-2005, 08:28 AM

Oh, oops, I read something wrong when I was posting. You're right, the Ace out is not negligible at all. My mistake.

Lets give it one out... thus we have 4 effective outs... which requires 10.5 to 1 to call... which is exactly what we have in our worst case scenario that I laid out. Thus the flop is a call.

12-19-2005, 09:23 AM

Preflop: who cares really? I gamb0ol.
Flop: Call and pray.

TheHip41

12-19-2005, 10:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was extremely marginal, if good at all, to call the 3-bet. Given that UTG called, I figured the pot would get huge. I wasn't thinking about the cap.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you fold preflop. Best case you have 5 outs against KK/QQ.

Worst case you flop top pair in a ginormous pot, but you have 2 outs.

12-19-2005, 11:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is why you fold preflop. Best case you have 5 outs against KK/QQ.

Worst case you flop top pair in a ginormous pot, but you have 2 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to figure out how bad the preflop actually is. Best result for the call is what happened in this hand. Everyone comes along and MP3 doesn't cap. I'm getting 13.5:2 immediate odds. Assume MP3 and CO will always call, or MP3 will cap and CO will fold, so we can automatically count 2 extra SB in the pot. 15.5:2, which is slightly less than the 16:2 needed to flop a flush draw. Adding in the rare cases of two pair, trips, backdoor flushes, boats, and quads, I think this is a pretty even overlay to call. Without a cap, I would only have to make up 0.5BB postflop, which is all but guaranteed in a pot this huge.

If I can expect at least one more player to call, then this puts my call into the profitable range. Furthermore, because so many bets are going in preflop, I can expect to get paid on my big hands, thereby increasing my implied odds for the call.

If UTG had folded, I could see myself folding this most of the time. However, her money in the pot makes it close, and increases the likelihood of another player coming along for the ride.

12-19-2005, 02:00 PM

Flop: (21.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (13.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero ...

Rex Ruthless

12-19-2005, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The game was actually very loose passive (something like 38/5), and A7s is much better than A2s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that, I am inclined to play Axs from anywhere, just unfortunate that you're getting 3-bet in this hand - the hazards of playing Axs from EP.

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you call. MP3 didn't cap, so he might just have a big A. BB's 3 bet could be AK. If that's true, you might be ahead and hoping for an A to fall on the turn. If a rag falls on the turn, grit your teeth and raise a BB lead in an effort to protect your lowly pair of 7's. If you get reraised, you're behind and only call bets on the river if you improve. Of course, running clubs for the backdoor flush would be the dream scenario, but watch out if the board pairs and broadway cards appear.

gopnik

12-19-2005, 02:38 PM

I call. If you manage to suck out, you'll win a HUGE pot.

gopnik

12-19-2005, 02:45 PM

I raise to make it unprofitable for 3 outers (AK, AQ) to call this.(they still will, they just won't know that they are not getting the right odds.)
Plus, some weak overs can fold too.
Yes, I raise.

Grease

12-19-2005, 02:47 PM

I call the flop and raise any non-paint turn.

Raising here does nothing to protect your hand, as the pot is offering almost 13-1. It worked out this time, but you gotta protect your hand somehow in this huge pot.

Bet the turn.

damaniac

12-19-2005, 03:38 PM

Bet the turn. Is this close?

Borno

12-19-2005, 04:08 PM

umm this hand sucks the whole way through.

fold pf - the 1st time around, not sure if you got that. once its 3 bet I would probably have to call, but a cap SUCKS. Notice that there is a UTG caller, meaning your A7 has a good chance of domination. If there was no caller I might be more inclined to call.. but even still. like A9 there is okay I think. I know there isn't a huge difference but its big enough.

umm Ref. SSHE pf quiz for that call - Ed Miller does it! so do I.. lol

on the flop I call and I raise any under turn.. the 9.. well.. I see there are 14 bets in the pot.. a bet doesn't do much for you.. I think I call this one down probably. let people think their A-Big is good when their A hits.

and if its bet before you on the turn auto-raise / fold to a 3-bet

damaniac

12-19-2005, 04:20 PM

I'm not quite getting the preflop hositility. I don't think limping A7s so early should be a default, but there are most definetly low limit tables where doing so is totally fine. The 2/4 game at the Flamingo would be a good example. In any event, it really depends on the table, not on a rigid application of SSHE. So if the OP's read was such that the table was like 6-7 to the flop almost never for a raise, yeah it's ok.

Same thing with calling two back. 13:2 immediate odds, we're probably looking at something between 19:2 and I dunno, 19:3 (say MP caps and you lose a couple limpers). If we flop a flush draw or two pair/trips, etc, we should be able to take the table for a lot of bets. Yeah, we hit some second bests but we aren't going crazy with top pair. In any event, I don't know how to quantify it exactly, it MAY be wrong, but I can't see it being wrong by much if it is, and I really think you should show a profit calling two back here.

hobbsmann

12-19-2005, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn. Is this close?

[/ QUOTE ]
no

@bsolute_luck

12-19-2005, 04:53 PM

preflop and flop are goot. turn is a bet.

Jake (The Snake)

12-19-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite getting the preflop hositility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me either. What the hell is going on around here lately with all this? Just because the SSHE Tight chart says fold doesn't mean that folding is correct. Those charts are not meant to be rigidly followed.

Fwiw, I used to limp all suited aces from UTG when I played 2/4, and they showed a profit. UTG has already called here, I think playing A7s is CERTAINLY profitable for a good player in this spot.

On the way back, I'd fold... but I really don't have any mathematical evidence as to why. I don't like being oop with a hand that easily could be dominated which would give yucky reverse implieds in a big pot.

Rex Ruthless

12-19-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (21.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (13.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Things are looking more promising - looking more & more like two big A hands have missed and you're measely pair of 7's might be best --> BET.

12-19-2005, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I raise to make it unprofitable for 3 outers (AK, AQ) to call this.(they still will, they just won't know that they are not getting the right odds.)
Plus, some weak overs can fold too.
Yes, I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, let's make some assumptions. Let's say I just call and bring along 2 of the players beind me, beefing the pot up to about 26sb, or 13bb. Let's also say that BB leads again and UTG calls again, and I then raise. I face the field with 8.5:1 odds, meaning I protect against anyone with fewer than 5 outs. This is being generous, though. If the action is a bit slower on the turn, then I protect against maybe 5-outers also. I don't know how to handle the fact that MP3 is still left to act (although she didn't cap pf, so this could easily reduce her to passivity, especially on a dry flop like this). If I raise now, then it could get even worse for me when BB 3-bets.

All in all, I decided to raise to the flop to protect against 3-outers and also get some dirty 6-outers to fold (I would probably fold KQ or JT if this flop was raised, where I would possibly call for one bet). With 4 players behind me, I think I need to push this edge now.

12-19-2005, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn. Is this close?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop: (21.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Turn: (13.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (16.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero ...

damaniac

12-19-2005, 05:54 PM

I really want to keep betting. I figure BB has AK, maybe AQ, but it could be he's just getting scared with JJ or something. I sort of expect him to make a crying call too (pot's big, can't fold in big pots, etc). UTG, well no draw that he's likely on came in on the river, so I'm again tempted to bet and watch him fold a busted draw or call with a worse seven or a six. Presumably call a c/r.

silkyslim

12-19-2005, 05:58 PM

value bet and get called by A-hi in one spot?

hobbsmann

12-19-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite getting the preflop hositility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me either. What the hell is going on around here lately with all this? Just because the SSHE Tight chart says fold doesn't mean that folding is correct. Those charts are not meant to be rigidly followed.

Fwiw, I used to limp all suited aces from UTG when I played 2/4, and they showed a profit. UTG has already called here, I think playing A7s is CERTAINLY profitable for a good player in this spot.

On the way back, I'd fold... but I really don't have any mathematical evidence as to why. I don't like being oop with a hand that easily could be dominated which would give yucky reverse implieds in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for the rest of the people that are hostile about the preflop play, but when I said fold it was specifically directed toward calling the 3-bet. When I played 2/4 I had a VPIP of close to 21 and limped all suited aces UTG.

damaniac

12-19-2005, 06:43 PM

It wasn't that suggesting a preflop fold is wrong, it was just the whole idea that "OMG SSHE doesn't say to play that, how dare you deviate from SSHE??" In all fairness, though, it came from newer posters, and learning poker and how to play things situationally takes time, so I'm not trying to be a dick or anything. In any event, I think I'd still call the two cold, but I don't think either decision, absent further info, is horribly wrong.

Jake (The Snake)

12-19-2005, 11:33 PM

This is exactly what I meant too.

And while I agree that it has generally come from new players, I have seen it from people with 1000+ posts as well (although I don't think they've been around too long either). In any case, I think a lot of people who read/post on this forum would be literally shocked to see the advice in this classic gem. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=1777844)

I have no qualms with folding when it's two back to me either.

@bsolute_luck

12-20-2005, 08:57 AM

i just check behind the river. people fear a set and call down with higher PP and i just don't think a worse hand is calling given previous action.

Rex Ruthless

12-20-2005, 11:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (21.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Turn: (13.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (16.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't put the BB on a pair, but UTG has just been calling all along. Does he have a pair higher than 7's? Don't know for sure, but I have been erroring on the side of value betting lately, so I say value bet it. If I were your opponent, I would not put you on a set - most would slowplay a set on that flop.

12-20-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i just check behind the river. people fear a set and call down with higher PP and i just don't think a worse hand is calling given previous action.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think AK-AQ or 6xs are calling down often enough? I guess part of the problem with this river is that there just isn't a large number of worse hands possible, but I still think the 2 is the best possible card I could have hoped for. Actually, it's quite possible that this is the only card that makes a valuebet good. Maybe a 3 earns a valuebet as well, but I don't think much else does.

@bsolute_luck

12-20-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i just check behind the river. people fear a set and call down with higher PP and i just don't think a worse hand is calling given previous action.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think AK-AQ or 6xs are calling down often enough? I guess part of the problem with this river is that there just isn't a large number of worse hands possible, but I still think the 2 is the best possible card I could have hoped for. Actually, it's quite possible that this is the only card that makes a valuebet good. Maybe a 3 earns a valuebet as well, but I don't think much else does.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you were villain, what would you put us on when we limp in preflop EP and then call a 3-bet and raise that ragged flop? certainly not a total bluff? let's figure maybe a straight draw of sorts: the 9 would most likely give you a pair and if you were UI, i don't think you'd bet that turn when you were called in a couple places.

so, no i don't think UI OCs would be calling here. you think UTG has a 6? i think the best we're hoping for is 55 unless he's a total loose retard, but i really don't think we're folding a better hand here often enough or having a worse hand calling again based on previous streets.

12-20-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you were villain, what would you put us on when we limp in preflop EP and then call a 3-bet and raise that ragged flop? certainly not a total bluff? let's figure maybe a straight draw of sorts: the 9 would most likely give you a pair and if you were UI, i don't think you'd bet that turn when you were called in a couple places.

so, no i don't think UI OCs would be calling here. you think UTG has a 6? i think the best we're hoping for is 55 unless he's a total loose retard, but i really don't think we're folding a better hand here often enough or having a worse hand calling again based on previous streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I know BB is trying to put me on a hand, then it really makes no sense to bet. Would you call AK on this river getting 17.5:1 odds? I probably would (even though I shouldn't). If, for some reason I had a hand like 65s, at this point, I'm definately calling. I probably would have heard from two pair or a set by this point. The table's been pretty ridiculous so far, so I think I'd probably get called by AK often enough.

I turned my ahead away from the screen, bet, and both opponents folded.