Stars and Party 500k knockouts

Knocked out of both tourneys early on with similar hands...are these hands not good enough to play? Its early, so i have no reads...

HAND 1
Folded to me in Cutoff w/ A /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif...blinds are 15/30 and i raise to 120(1500 behind)...button (covers me)calls, all else fold

flop A /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet 200, button raises to 600, and i think and push...button flips over AK...

Hand 2
Both players in hand have 1500 as do I. UTG +1 raises to 60, i call with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif in middle position, as does button.

flop K /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG+1 bets 120, i call, and button raises to 300. UTG+1 thinks and calls...I reraise all in, the button calls, and UTG+1 folds...once again lose to AK

SO are these two hands not strong enough to play? Or the better question is, at what point do you drop either hand? Thanks for responses.

[illegit]

Is there not a PP 500K thread? I don't see one.

[OrcaDK]

1)
Raise less preflop, no reason to commit too much. Many (including myself) would call with AK like villain, so you've got an easy fold after he reraises you so heavily... What hands are you beating here?

2)
Fold preflop, no reason to play sucker hands this early in this position. You ush into a bet and a raise with top pair crap kicker? Bad bad bad, fold.

[yvesaint]

top pair? why yes, ill push!! /sarcasm

[benneh]

fold to the raise in the first hand.

the second hand, you can probably fold preflop, but its not TOO horrible to just flat call until you get in the problem of pushing that flop.

After UTG+1 calls the raise of the initial bet, what hands are you beating here? ZYou have to muck there.

[zgall1]

Hands like these are the reason that the people on this board can make so much money.

thanks for the insightful commentary Yves.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the insightful commentary Yves.

[/ QUOTE ]

use your head - what do you expect to call your push, in each hand, that you beat?

i understand i made mistakes in both hands. My question is where do i drop in either hand. Not sure why you post the first time without anything that helps anyone learn anything new.

[ QUOTE ]
i understand i made mistakes in both hands. My question is where do i drop in either hand. Not sure why you post the first time without anything that helps anyone learn anything new.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr Rock:
Yves does this becasue though both hands look rather pretty from an asthetic viewpoint, they are both the equivelent of the Detroit Lions to a real poker player. I have recently learned this the hard way as most of my "problem hand" posts involved hands like KJo or A10s and after reading TPFAP and Harrington Vol. 1 the Math made sense on why these hands will almost always do things like this to you more than you will flop your desired straight. Yves is trying to point out that you made a rookie mistake without coming right out and saying that you spewed your chips like an ATM....I've done it myself pleanty, i know it when i see it.


Run goot

I think you played the A10 suited hand fine up until pushing after the raise. I'm fine with making it 120 and following it up with 200 on the flop. But then it's time to muck when he comes over the top.

1st hand: PF raise is fine, after the raise you should be done with the hand, he knows that there is an ace on board, he's not betting into you without one or something else of higher value.

2nd hand: Fold Preflop and avoid the knockout.. the best thing I can advise (unless you have super reads) is never to get involved with trap hands, especially from an UTG+1 raiser..

I'd also advise to try and keep the pots small, there's no need to be shoving everything at the first or 2nd levels with only top pair.

Hand 1 - It's hard to fault your play preflop - I'd definitely raise with that hand if folded to me. You can fold to the flop raise. You're behind too many hands in villains possible range and this isn't worth going all the way with. He's making a strong statement that you're behind.

Hand 2 - KJs is a hand I would recommend you fold facing a raise preflop. Many poker authors recommend the same. I recall a statement made recently by raptor that you need to play these hands or you're missing out on EV. I think that when your postflop play is a bit stronger you can add a few hands like this to call with preflop for a cheap price on occasion. You don't seem to be able to get away from top pair, though, so I wouldn't look for those hands just yet in your case. Postflop - after you are raised and UTG+1 cold-calls it is clear that you do not have the best hand here. You might be ahead of UTG+1 but it's not likely you're ahead of the button here.

Listen to the bets in both hands. They're telling you clearly that you are behind and you should fold. In hand 1 you didn't "think and push" but rather you pushed without thinking. You figured you had top pair and if someone had a better kicker then so be it. The bets in both hands told you that someone did, in fact, have a better hand. You just weren't listening - or you don't know how to listen for those clues yet.

It also appears that you overvalue top pair and you aren't very strong with postflop play. Refer back to the gap concept and starting hand values - the value of a hand is relative to your position and the action in front of you.

[illegit]

My PP 500K bustout hand. Button was pretty smart and aggressive it seemed.

#Game No : 3224611743
***** Hand History for Game 3224611743 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:18393734 Level:12 Blinds (500/1000) - Sunday, December 18, 20:47:14 EDT 2005
Table $500K Guaranteed(539296) Table #19 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: ibite123 ( $6456 )
Seat 4: SheFaLLs ( $33340 )
Seat 5: illegit ( $17546 )
Seat 6: methanaman ( $28110 )
Seat 3: trash57 ( $37082 )
Seat 9: CENTUR ( $21266 )
Seat 1: chicaMiTip0 ( $10195 )
Seat 8: zigzagdro ( $38483 )
Seat 10: SWANS_TIGERS ( $25668 )
Seat 7: Bkstoney ( $35062 )
Trny:18393734 Level:12
Blinds (500/1000)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to illegit [ Kc 5d ]
Bkstoney folds.
zigzagdro folds.
CENTUR folds.
SWANS_TIGERS folds.
chicaMiTip0 folds.
ibite123 folds.
trash57 folds.
SheFaLLs raises [2750].
illegit is all-In [17046]
methanaman folds.
SheFaLLs calls [14796].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 3h, 7d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
SheFaLLs shows [ Js, Jd ] two pairs, jacks and tens.
illegit shows [ Kc, 5d ] a pair of tens.
SheFaLLs wins 36092 chips from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and tens.
Player illegit finished in 181 place and received $333.84

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - It's hard to fault your play preflop - I'd definitely raise with that hand if folded to me. You can fold to the flop raise. You're behind too many hands in villains possible range and this isn't worth going all the way with. He's making a strong statement that you're behind.

Hand 2 - KJs is a hand I would recommend you fold facing a raise preflop. Many poker authors recommend the same. I recall a statement made recently by raptor that you need to play these hands or you're missing out on EV. I think that when your postflop play is a bit stronger you can add a few hands like this to call with preflop for a cheap price on occasion. You don't seem to be able to get away from top pair, though, so I wouldn't look for those hands just yet in your case. Postflop - after you are raised and UTG+1 cold-calls it is clear that you do not have the best hand here. You might be ahead of UTG+1 but it's not likely you're ahead of the button here.

Listen to the bets in both hands. They're telling you clearly that you are behind and you should fold. In hand 1 you didn't "think and push" but rather you pushed without thinking. You figured you had top pair and if someone had a better kicker then so be it. The bets in both hands told you that someone did, in fact, have a better hand. You just weren't listening - or you don't know how to listen for those clues yet.

It also appears that you overvalue top pair and you aren't very strong with postflop play. Refer back to the gap concept and starting hand values - the value of a hand is relative to your position and the action in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great response, BTW. Couldn't agree more with just about everything you said.