Played craps with TJ Cloutier

at Bellagio on Friday night. It was a $10 table. TJ only had about $100 on the table and all he was doing was complaining about how unlucky he is. What a degenerate gambler.

[lighterjobs]

seven!
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/images/articles/1802/02-Hellmuth-TJ-Cloutier.jpg

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
at Bellagio on Friday night. It was a $10 table. TJ only had about $100 on the table and all he was doing was complaining about how unlucky he is. What a degenerate gambler.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does that make him a degenerate gambler?

(And I know TJ is reputed to have a craps problem, but this post gives no indication of anything that would resemble a degenerate gambler. And I am tired of people talking out their asses.)

[mike l.]

i recently heard from a well respected poster a good tj craps story. maybe he will share it.

I played with him at the Bellagio also. I watched him go through his cash and then talk a couple of lady friends into giving him a few hundred so he could teach them how to play. The craps dealers were cracking up.
Also played with T.J. in the 1000 nightly poker tourney. He told me that Mike Sexton sold his interest in Party Poker for about 14 million. Nice payday.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
Also played with T.J. in the 1000 nightly poker tourney. He told me that Mike Sexton sold his interest in Party Poker for about 14 million. Nice payday.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised that his total interest was worth only $14M. And I'm also surprised he would sell out entirely. I think there's something wrong with this story.

TJ said Mike got bought out shortly before it went public.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
TJ said Mike got bought out shortly before it went public.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh.

[shaniac]

Everyone has played craps with TJ.

Most people don't go out of their way to post sniveling remarks about his gambling problem on internet poker forums.

I would, however, like to hear Mike l.'s friend's story.

In his Championship Tournement book he mentions playing in tourneys backed by hellmuth in the early 90s. In addition you can read his profile on Barry Greensteins website.

[renodoc]

Better was watching the sniveling 20-somethings ask Hachem to sign dollar bills for them. I think his wife or gf is going to be tired of his celebrity real fast.

Besides, how much fun can $100 craps be after you've won the WSOP???

[ QUOTE ]
besides, how much fun can $100 craps be after you've won the WSOP???

[/ QUOTE ]


Not much if it's your last $100, which I think was the point.

[gonores]

I think mike l was talking about me when referring to a good TJ craps story. I posted this story earlier this year, but it found it's way into the archives. I re-wrote the story and added a good deal of description....It's probably worth a re-read. Here it is.




Last night was the final night for the Minnesota contingent of poker players in Vegas. To celebrate their final night, we decide to have a night on the town. The party included me, Schneids, BK, NLSoldier, Fsuplayer and his roommate, Josh (not to be confused with superstar mod Josh.). We head over to the Palms to eat at N9ne Steakhouse. Dinner was excellent, though Schneider didn’t order any drinks with dinner and Fsuplayer was stuck having an interstate argument with his fiancé during the first few courses. Somehow, Schneids didn’t get kicked out for wearing a t-shirt and cargo shorts. This impressed me. I will learn how to do that some day. Good times were had by all.

After dinner, we head out to play some craps before hitting the clubs. Since everyone else in the world walks slower than me when I am buzzed/drunk and on a gamb00ling kick, I lead the pack to the craps pit. I spot a nice little table with a good view of most of the pit and one large gray-haired guy as its only gamer. I stumble up and drop a few bills on the table…I’m focused and ready to play. Five to ten seconds later, the rest of my not-so-fleet-of-foot party shows up at my table and I hear someone from my party say, somewhat quietly, “Dude, it is T.J.” Many others of my party confirm his identity to me in muted tones. I look up. Holy crap. We’re playing craps with TJ Cloutier.

Me: “TEEEEEEEEE JAAAAAAYYYYY!!! HOW’S IT GOING?”
TJ: *inaudible muttering*

The look on this man’s face is not one of a “happy gamer.” I decide this man could crush my skull, so I try to befriend him. I, along with the rest of my party, drop down a few red chips on the pass line and loudly instruct TJ to roll us a seven. Although I cannot give first hand confirmation, the dealers and multiple party members later informed me he had $2,000 on the pass line.

TJ rolls a seven.

Me: “ATABOY, TJ!!!”

Wild celebrating and high-fiving of other members of our party ensues.

Seconds later, the dealer swoops in and cleans every chip off the pass line. I am confused. I, along with the rest of the group, express our confusion to the dealers and to TJ. TJ informs us that he tried to tell us he had already made a point before we got there, and his seven just crapped us out.

Oops. Again, the look on TJ’s face did not make me think he would consider that little etiquette faux pas as water under the bridge. I begin to apologize, but soon turn my attention to the cocktail waitress who needed to be gawked at and who needed to be told that we desperately needed coronas. By the time my attention is back to the table, I have the incident forgotten. Josh, the next roller after TJ, craps out quickly, and the dice are sent to yours truly. As it’s early in the night, I inform TJ and the rest of the table that I am feeling good, and that I am going to make everyone a ton of money. As the dice are being sent over to me, I watch TJ place his bet on the pass line, and notice both of his wrists are bare. Since he is on the other side of the dealer and a whole 8 feet away from me, I decide to turn up the volume and inquire “HEY TJ, WHERE’S YOUR BRACELET?!?”

*Awkward two-second silence* I wonder to myself what the hell made me say that.

A small, sarcastic-looking grin cracks on his face. He informs me he doesn’t wear his bracelets everywhere he goes. I congratulate him on his recent win anyways. He mumbles again. I proceed to crap out in expeditious fashion. Awkward silence ensues. We’re not sure to what levels of despair TJ is sinking, but his smile is long gone. Tension fills the air for a few moments as we all steal glances at the powder keg on the other side of the dealer. Dice are pushed to Schneider. Everyone throws up a gambler’s prayer to their god of choice.

*cricket* *cricket* Craps tables at popular casinos on Friday nights should never be this quiet. Schneider, clearly shaken by the ordeal, flings the dice clear off the table, past the slot machines, and into the men’s room. The event that will break this tension, namely, hitting a point, seems so desperately far off that I eye the Money Wheel as a safer gaming alternative. I desperately scan the crowd for our cocktail waitress. Order is still a few moments away from being restored. A few lame, possibly nervous, drunken quips are thrown at Schneider from our party. The table silences again as we wait for the next throw.

My gaze is drawn away from the table for a few moments, probably to gawk at a big, beautiful pair of fake breasts or something.

And then it happened.

“Man, you should of known you had no chance in 2000. Nobody can beat Jesus heads-up.”

I whip my head around toward the direction of the voice. I figure out that the source of this line is Josh and I see him with a drink from dinner still in his hand…he’s drunk-swaying ever-so-slightly. He’s not really looking at TJ, but he’s not looking away from him either. I lean over the table to try to catch a glimpse at TJ. I wonder in my mind whether or not I hoped TJ had heard that comment. If he had heard it, his demeanor hadn’t changed much. It takes a second or two for what just transpired to register, and I start giggling. I look at FSUplayer….he’s giggling too. Since I’ve gotten to know Josh a bit better since then, I’ve come to anticipate and be on the lookout for moments like these…FSU must have seen it coming. I don’t know if the Minnesota kids just didn’t hear the comment or if they just weren’t comfortable reacting to it…I’m guessing it was more the former than the latter, because we were all well on our way to incoherently drunk at that point. Still giggling like a school girl, I look back at Josh. I’m not sure he realizes that he’s made a funny (Once again, as I got to know him better, I realized he’s just really good at keeping a straight face). We’re still waiting for the game to resume. Then salvo #2 was fired…

“You should have known ace-queen was no good there. What were you thinking? You gotta lay that down against Jesus.”

*Ding* That one registered. TJ looks up and opens his mouth and shoots Josh a look, but I think he took a look at Josh and realized verbal reprimand was pointless at this point. So now not only is he probably down 5 digits in craps, he’s also taking crap from 20-somethings whose already over-inflated egos are even larger by copious amounts of alcohol. He could have been irate with us, or he could have been asking himself if this was him hitting rock bottom…I’m never good with deciphering the countenances of old men who are used as examples for mothers who try to scare their children by telling them "not to make faces like that or your face will freeze, just like his.”

Either way, I’m glad I didn’t have my beer yet, because in my younger years I’ve learned that shooting beer through one’s nose is not pleasant, and I am certain that would have happened had I been drinking at that point. All of us crack up, as we realize that it’s fun to ridicule cranky old people…especially those who were influential in making jobs like ours possible. Tomfoolery and mirth-making once again become the standard at our table.

Somewhere in the next two or three rolls, TJ slinks away from the table and resurfaces across the pit at a different table, presumably with people who don’t know him. I decide maybe we suck and that I should go over and apologize, but somehow conveniently forget as soon as NLSoldier gets the dice in his hands and hits point after point for us. By the time he had to pass the dice, some cute girls had filled in where TJ was standing and I decide making TJ leave was a good thing. Unfortunately, the girls ended up sucking and the rest of the night was split between losing money at craps and attempting to persuade the girls to ditch the guido losers who were tring to get them over to Tangerine and to go out with us. I was later assured by BK that losing that battle was no big loss for us.

Not to hijack this thread, but here was a fun craps session back in 2003.

I was in Atlantic City on business and rolled the bones at the Taj. I was sitting two off the stick, playing the pass line w/ odds, place bets, etc. In the middle of my roll, some guy takes the open spot between me and the stick and pulls out a rubber-banded wad of 100's. He pulls out several more and requests $1000 chip denominations.

He puts $2000 in the don't come. I roll a 9. He lays it with $12000 and puts another $2000 in the don't come. I roll a 10. He lays that with $12000. 7-out. He pulls in an $18000 profit. Every shooter he puts $2000 don't pass, $12000 lay odds and then ONE $2000 don't come w/ $12000 odds.

3 shooters do nothing but 7-out, never hitting a 7 or 11 on the come out and never hit repeaters to kill his $14000 don't come/lay odds. The suits are now watching the game. A refill is made. Another refill is made.

At about this time some annoying guy starts cheering for "Johnny." He's right behind me and is cheering for the 7-outs. 2 more shooters, 7-out, etc. A third refill is made and Johnny is up a little over $100000. The guy asks Johnny when he is going to leave and Johnny replies, "I have not lost a bet yet!"

"Johnny World! Johnny World! 7-out! 7. 7. 7!" Finally the 6th or 7th shooter hits a point and then the 9, which was Johnny's $2000/$12000 and he leaves. Now he doesn't just color up, he stuffs all these $1000 chips in his pockets and gives that guy a few of them.

As he is walking away he asks the pit boss, "Do you have me rated?"

[lapoker17]

gonores and rowdy - great stories.

[Aceshigh7]

I read an interview that said he was fully backed by his good friend Lyle Berman. So, he is probably in better financial straits than many tournament pros as he does not have to pay his own buyins.

[Riverman]

When I started going to AC I saw T.J in a 50+5 tournament at the Trop. At the time I assumed he was killing time but the truth is much sadder.

[ QUOTE ]
Seconds later, the dealer swoops in and cleans every chip off the pass line. I am confused. I, along with the rest of the group, express our confusion to the dealers and to TJ. TJ informs us that he tried to tell us he had already made a point before we got there, and his seven just crapped us out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't put bets on the pass line if a point was already made. They would have refused the bets, or maybe asked if you wanted to make a come bet, but they would not have left them on the pass line.

Sounds like someone was thinker than he drunk he was. I would have found a new table too.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seconds later, the dealer swoops in and cleans every chip off the pass line. I am confused. I, along with the rest of the group, express our confusion to the dealers and to TJ. TJ informs us that he tried to tell us he had already made a point before we got there, and his seven just crapped us out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't put bets on the pass line if a point was already made. They would have refused the bets, or maybe asked if you wanted to make a come bet, but they would not have left them on the pass line.

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty sure you're wrong pal..

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seconds later, the dealer swoops in and cleans every chip off the pass line. I am confused. I, along with the rest of the group, express our confusion to the dealers and to TJ. TJ informs us that he tried to tell us he had already made a point before we got there, and his seven just crapped us out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't put bets on the pass line if a point was already made. They would have refused the bets, or maybe asked if you wanted to make a come bet, but they would not have left them on the pass line.

Sounds like someone was thinker than he drunk he was. I would have found a new table too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure if you an wrong or the dealer was wrong. But the way doug told it was exactly how it happened. my guess is that they allow it if you are new to the table or something, it makes sense that you wouldnt be able to do it every time.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure if you an wrong or the dealer was wrong. But the way doug told it was exactly how it happened. my guess is that they allow it if you are new to the table or something, it makes sense that you wouldnt be able to do it every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are supposed to allow it any time, new to the table or not. (And no pit game that I know of would ever have a rule exception for "new to the table.") You can't put a don't pass bet after the point is rolled. But yes, you can put a pass line bet after the point is rolled. The guy who said you couldn't was wrong.

[Josh W]

On the come out roll, the player (for that roll alone!) is an 8:4 favorite (8 ways to win, 4 to lose).

Now, the player is a big favorite (when betting the pass line) on the come out roll. This means that they MUST be a big dog on the following rolls (after the point is established).

So, if a player wants to bet on the pass line AFTER the come out roll, the house will GLADLY take their action. It's a fairly stupid (i.e. drunk) maneuver, but definitely allowed.

Next time you play blackjack and get dealt a blackjack, and the dealer shows a 6, ask the dealer/pitboss if you can take even money. I bet they let you.

Josh

In a decent place, they will treat it as a place bet.
They will represent this by sliding the bet back until it is on the back boundry of the pass line.

The pass line is a contract bet, so once you put $ down - it has to stay. You can add to it. This is usually done when you want more odds. The reverse is true of the don't pass line, you can pull money off at any time - however, you cannot put the money back once the original has been pulled off.

The reasoning is this; On the come-out roll, money on the pass line is a favorite over money on the don't pass line. Once a point is established, money on the pass line is the underdog vs. money on the don't pass line. The 7 will come out more frequently than any other number. So they want money on the pass line at all times.

As far as walking up to a table in the middle of the roll, you can place the point using the pass line. The money is offset, using the line nearest you. However, you could just put money on the pass line - but that makes no sense. Suppose you walk up to a $10 table, and the point is 9. You put $20 on the pass line. If the 9 is hit, you win even money. However, if you place it using the pass line - you will receive $28 or $29 (depending on the casino).

As a side-note, when I was in Tunica for the WPO - I saw for the first time, a crapless crap game. 2, 3, 11 and 12 COULD be your point. It was quite disgusting if you ask me, I saw noone hit a 2, 3, 11, or 12 once they established it!

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
As a side-note, when I was in Tunica for the WPO - I saw for the first time, a crapless crap game. 2, 3, 11 and 12 COULD be your point. It was quite disgusting if you ask me, I saw noone hit a 2, 3, 11, or 12 once they established it!


[/ QUOTE ]

This game has been around for over a decade at least. I played it at the Stratosphere in 1995.

I have seen those points made.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
In a decent place, they will treat it as a place bet.
They will represent this by sliding the bet back until it is on the back boundry of the pass line.

[/ QUOTE ]
this sounds correct
once upon a time i was a craps dealer, but sadly i cant recall the rules on this. i recall that if somebody wanted to do this we would tell them it would be wise to make a place bet but i dont know if there was a "rule".in the end, i believe you cant walk up and make a pass line bet when theres already a point. if im correct, i think the reason for this is that depending on the allowable table odds, the house can get beat out of money when a player would take odds (example:placing $100 5 pays $140, $10 pass line and $90 odds pays $145).
somebody tell me if this makes any sense

btw, rolling a 7 is never called "crapping out" as far as i know?

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
my guess is that they allow it if you are new to the table or something, it makes sense that you wouldnt be able to do it every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

lmfao

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a decent place, they will treat it as a place bet.
They will represent this by sliding the bet back until it is on the back boundry of the pass line.

[/ QUOTE ]
this sounds correct
once upon a time i was a craps dealer , but sadly i cant recall the rules on this. i recall that if somebody wanted to do this we would tell them it would be wise to make a place bet but i dont know if there was a "rule".in the end, i believe you cant walk up and make a pass line bet when theres already a point. if im correct, i think the reason for this is that depending on the allowable table odds, the house can get beat out of money when a player would take odds (example:placing $100 5 pays $140, $10 pass line and $90 odds pays $145).
somebody tell me if this makes any sense

btw, rolling a 7 is never called "crapping out" as far as i know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please never apply for a job at my company.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a decent place, they will treat it as a place bet.
They will represent this by sliding the bet back until it is on the back boundry of the pass line.

[/ QUOTE ]
this sounds correct
once upon a time i was a craps dealer , but sadly i cant recall the rules on this. i recall that if somebody wanted to do this we would tell them it would be wise to make a place bet but i dont know if there was a "rule".in the end, i believe you cant walk up and make a pass line bet when theres already a point. if im correct, i think the reason for this is that depending on the allowable table odds, the house can get beat out of money when a player would take odds (example:placing $100 5 pays $140, $10 pass line and $90 odds pays $145).
somebody tell me if this makes any sense

btw, rolling a 7 is never called "crapping out" as far as i know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please never apply for a job at my company.

[/ QUOTE ]
why? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[drewjustdrew]

You worked as a dealer and you don't understand the rules. I haven't played in years, but can still tell you that:

1. You can make a pass line bet at any time, but may not remove a pass line bet once the point is established.
2. The odds bet is always a neutral EV bet and the pass line is a -EV bet for the player once the point is established, and should therefore always be welcomed regardless of # of times odds allowed by the house. You are correct though that placing would be even more advantageous.

I take it back about working at my company though. We have plenty of people who do a good job, even though they don't understand the reasons behind their job functions.

I know, I'm being a smartass. No harm meant.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
You worked as a dealer and you don't understand the rules. I haven't played in years, but can still tell you that:

1. You can make a pass line bet at any time, but may not remove a pass line bet once the point is established.
2. The odds bet is always a neutral EV bet and the pass line is a -EV bet for the player once the point is established, and should therefore always be welcomed regardless of # of times odds allowed by the house. You are correct though that placing would be even more advantageous.

I take it back about working at my company though. We have plenty of people who do a good job, even though they don't understand the reasons behind their job functions.

I know, I'm being a smartass. No harm meant.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. it was like 7 years ago and did it for 6 months on weekends, i cant be expectred to recall such obscurity.
2. did you even read what i explained above about the edge a player would have if they were allowed to make pass line bets after the come out? all the bets on the table are negative ev, except the odds. i dont think they are going to let you make a pass line bet just because its negative ev. why would they give you the chance to put a large portion of your money in play with neutral ev, when they can force you to put it all in play negatively?. is this some sort of magical loophole?

i dug up my dealer school's "craps dealer reference manual". under section "making and removing of wagers", it says "A wager made on any bet may be removed or reduced at any time prior to a roll that decides the outcome of such wager. A pass bet and a come bet shall not be wagered, increased, removed, or reduced, after a come-out point or come point is established with respect to such bet ", and it also says " A player cannot make a pass or dont pass bet after the point is established, but he/she could place the point, buy the point, or buy behind the point"

im gonna skim through a little more, but i think the above makes me not crazy. /images/graemlins/cool.gif
you guys hiring?

edit: i just found this on the net: No matter what stage the game is in, whether on the "Come Out" roll, or in progress, you can jump in immediately and place any bets. The only exception to this is the bet called the "Pass Line" bet with odds", which can be made only on the "Come Out" roll. You can, however, bet with the shooter even while the game is in progress by placing a "Pass Line" bet without odds. Placing your chips halfway over one of the two lines framing the "Pass Line" area does this.

if correct,this sort of ties together what everybody is saying, you can make pass line bets, but cant take odds. that would make sense from a casino point of view.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
im gonna skim through a little more, but i think the above makes me not crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're crazy.
Just not as crazy as whoever wrote that manual.

[lastsamurai]

Just wait until commerce has a big tournament....he is usually on the paigow tables in the big room shaking the dice!

I heard stories about TJ playing 200 NL buyin at bike...

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im gonna skim through a little more, but i think the above makes me not crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're crazy.
Just not as crazy as whoever wrote that manual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that manual is poorly written. Your logic tells me that the only bet allowed in craps should be the "Any 7" since it gives the house the best advantage of all the bets.

Why allow players better odds when there are worse odds available to bet? That is what I get from your argument.

Edit: Was it a charity casino manual? I could see that.

[Jeffage]

Actually, from my degenerate gambling days, I am pretty sure Mostmooth's manual is correct as far as how the game is played in Atlantic City. I don't believe you can place a pass line bet in New Jersey after a point has been established. You can make come bets.

Jeff

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, from my degenerate gambling days, I am pretty sure Mostmooth's manual is correct as far as how the game is played in Atlantic City. I don't believe you can place a pass line bet in New Jersey after a point has been established. You can make come bets.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's ask this guy:

http://www.imgsrv.worldstart.com/store/images/john-patrick-craps-scrn1.gif

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe you can place a pass line bet in New Jersey after a point has been established. You can make come bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can make a pass bet at any time. There are many ways you can make less than optimal wagers on a craps table -- and all are allowed. You can also give the table your money as a gift (non tax-deductable). As far as I know, there are no mail-in programs yet -- so you'll have to make your donations in person.

[stickman]

Atlantic City only allows passline bets before the come out roll.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im gonna skim through a little more, but i think the above makes me not crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're crazy.
Just not as crazy as whoever wrote that manual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that manual is poorly written. Your logic tells me that the only bet allowed in craps should be the "Any 7" since it gives the house the best advantage of all the bets.

Why allow players better odds when there are worse odds available to bet? That is what I get from your argument.


[/ QUOTE ]
you dont comprehend too good.

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im gonna skim through a little more, but i think the above makes me not crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're crazy.
Just not as crazy as whoever wrote that manual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that manual is poorly written. Your logic tells me that the only bet allowed in craps should be the "Any 7" since it gives the house the best advantage of all the bets.

Why allow players better odds when there are worse odds available to bet? That is what I get from your argument.


[/ QUOTE ]
you dont comprehend too good.

[/ QUOTE ]

its tuff cuz you dont write too good neither /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[drewjustdrew]

I did just read at Trump's website that their rules do not allow betting the pass line once the point is established though. But their board also didn't have a Big 6 or 8 either, so maybe AC is looking out for its patrons.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I did just read at Trump's website that their rules do not allow betting the pass line once the point is established though. But their board also didn't have a Big 6 or 8 either, so maybe AC is looking out for its patrons.

[/ QUOTE ]
apology accepted/images/graemlins/grin.gif