Winning Low Limit Holdem?

[KaptainKangoroo]

I have seen MANY mixed views on this subject. I was thinking of picking this book up. Anyone know if it is any good?
my reading history:
Theory of Poker
Holdem for advanced players
I have Super System, haven't read all of it yet
Caro's book of tells
just got high low split for advanced players

Theory of Poker is great, and i'm starting to incorporate all of it into my playing. But I play online poker, and low limits, really micro. I play $.25/$.50 , sometimes $.50/$1.00.. i'm not quite sure if HFAP is exactly right for those limits... I use some of those ideas, and they don't exactly get the right outcomes according to the book...

is Wining Low Limit Holdem worth reading? Is there another book worth reading that I should pickup? or should i just stick with it on HFAP... i'm a poor college student, and currently working on building a poker bankroll.. i've done pretty well, turned $25 into around $140 so far online, and counting all of my real life home games, have a poker bankroll around $800-900... However this is not enough to play the limits HFAP was designed to play...

[Stew]

I would highly recommend this book for the limits you play. While there is some suspect advice, particularly on pre-flop play and starting hands, overall it will give you some good inisight on play that can help your game at these limits.

[slamdunkpro]

I highly recommend the Lee Jones book. It helped my Kitchen table game quite a bit!

[Cubswin]

Hey Kaptain-

I highly recommend the jones book, especially for the levels you are playing. I actually think that it should be read before HFAP because...well...you are playing low limits and are most likely not an advanced player yet nor will you be playing against advanced players. Some of the concepts discussed in HFAP will simply will not work in lower limits because these concepts only work on players who know what they are doing. If you are planning on attacking games up to 3/6 or maybe 5/10 I believe jones is a mandatory read. At these levels it might be a better book than HFAP. If you lived near me i might lend you my copy.

As for your bankroll and limited budget to purchase books i will offer the following advice. 1. Take advantage of 1st deposit bonuses offered by different poker rooms. They can help you build your roll quick. Check the internet forum here often as bonuses often pop up. 2. If you learn one thing from a $20 poker book it is worth purchasing it. The book will pay for itself quickly. 3. Read those books you have thoroughly and think about the concepts discussed. A week after you read them, go ahead and reread them. Repeat this numerious time. When the cover is coming off ur books from use you still havnt read them enough. 4. Most importantly-- listen to what the books say and do not differentiate your play from them. I had read Jones and HFAP a couple of times and still found myself losing. It was not until i gained discipline that i actually started winning. I am a recent college grad and am I currently doing well enough at 2/4 online multi table that i can support myself and live very very comfortably. It is great being ur own boss and setting your own hours!!!

Good luck with your studies!!!

Cubswin

[crockpot]

the Jones book is certainly not a bad read. however, i think that the best book for the games you describe is The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker by Gary Carson.

this is certainly not the best book on poker strategy in the world, but the author designed it for the reader who is interested in winning more profits at a game that is generally loose. he includes extensive discussions on evaluating your outs, adding the value of backdoor draws to your hand, betting odds, and how game conditions change your strategies.

there is also a telling example in the book, where a four-way confrontation occurs on a ragged two-suited flop between four hands (i believe it was something like this:)

flop: 9 <img src="/forums/images/icons/heart.gif" alt="" /> 7 <img src="/forums/images/icons/heart.gif" alt="" /> 4 <img src="/forums/images/icons/club.gif" alt="" />

hand 1: K <img src="/forums/images/icons/heart.gif" alt="" /> Q <img src="/forums/images/icons/heart.gif" alt="" />
hand 2: J <img src="/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif" alt="" /> J <img src="/forums/images/icons/spade.gif" alt="" />
hand 3: A <img src="/forums/images/icons/heart.gif" alt="" /> 9 <img src="/forums/images/icons/spade.gif" alt="" />
hand 4: T <img src="/forums/images/icons/club.gif" alt="" /> 8 <img src="/forums/images/icons/club.gif" alt="" />

carson shows that in this four-way confrontation, the seemingly "best hand" of JJ actually wins less than 20% of the time, while the KQ will win 45%. he uses this to illustrate the value of a powerful drawing hand in a loose game, and the devaluation of a hand like an overpair that is currently the best but has little potential for improvement.

i played on some of the loosest .50/1 tables ever (on poker.com before the hijacking, where 75%/flop was not uncommon), and the advice in this book helped me tremendously, allowing me to bet and raise my draws for value while playing more passively with made hands.

i will warn you that if you intend to move up to a tighter limit, the advice in this book can become dangerous, as poker becomes more of a game of knocking people out than of odds. but for a low-limit loose game this is a great read.

P.S. if you click my site or PM me, i'll set you up with a deposit bonus from a site like Party that features good low-limit action. just stay away from Paradise, their .50/1 players play the game like it's 5/10.

[Mason Malmuth]

One of the problems in Carson's book is that the big draws that he puts so much emphasis on occur very infrequently. While it's great to point out that straight flush draws with overcards are big hands in these games, you can go for many sessions without seeing a hand like this. Furthermore, when you hold one of these hands and get a lot of action, the value of your hand may go down since you can be against another strong hand such as a set (or two pair) and now you don't have as many outs as you think.

MM

[KaptainKangoroo]

What is suggested to do other wise for preflop play/starting hands?

Thanx!

[KaptainKangoroo]

I don't need help at the kitchen table game, but it can never hurt!

[KaptainKangoroo]

Thanx for the tips. at your 2/4 table, do you mostly follow WWLH or HFAP? do you incorporate both?

That really is my goal, to be able to play poker to keep me eating and living at my place. What other books did you read?

Thanks for the help!

[KaptainKangoroo]

hmnmmm, ok. I'll look into this book.

Thanks!

[KaptainKangoroo]

Hi Mason.

What is your opinion on this book by Carson? Do you believe that Jones book is better, or that neither should be read?

Thanks!

[asdf1234]

I would suggest tightening up from what he suggests, especially with the offsuit hands.

[Cubswin]

Kaptain-

I have read all of the books on your original list and a few more. I am just now starting to get into some of the tourny and omaha h/l books. Read the books you have plus Jones and you'll be fine.

As far as what book i follow most closely... there is no particular answer. The books are quite similiar in a lot of respects and cover many of the same topics. That being said i think there are some particular things from each book that warrant more attention. What i found to be helpful when i started playing seriously was to make a copy of HFAP hand rankings and keep them right next to the computer (This is legal to do....right Mason?)...that way you can learn them quickly and committ them to memory. The other nice thing about playing online is it is quite easy to determine pot odds and implied odd...so be sure to read and reread these sections in both books. Also be sure to read Jones sections about how to play in early, middle and late position. Jones does a great job of illustrating the importance of position. I think the most important concept to learn for use in lower limit games is the free card. Be sure to read through this section in both books...it will be worth it. The check raise is an important concept but i find it too be a whole lot more successful at higher limits where people actually know what they are doing. Hope this helps.

regards
cubswin

[KaptainKangoroo]

Sounds good. I'm going to get WLLH. I've been hitting a losing streak on Ultimate Bet, so I took my money off of there, keeps me from playing. So now since i'm not playing, I can reread all of my books, plus WLLH, several times. Thanx for the info.