hmm

[oreogod]

I play mostly 6max. This hand pretty much sucks imo. The pfr was decently passive. Tell me what u do.


PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Button folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.20 BB

[WillMagic]

Seems fine. Raising doesn't really do...anything.

The only decision i'm mulling is the river call. A passive player three-bets preflop and then bets that river into a protected pot...i don't know if you are good even 5% of the time here.

The more I think about it...this is a river fold.

Will

[toss]

I'd also say fold the river, but the pot is 13.2 Big Bets large. I guess you can fold if you're confident enough in you read or have PT stats on him over a laaaarge sample size.

[oreogod]

yeah u are probably probably right. Maybe sucks is a bad word

Also Le Samurai is essentially the greatest movie of all time

[W. Deranged]

I think at least on in 13 times or whatever the pre-flop three-bettor is getting freaky with AK and the UTG guy is a total donk...

I don't like raising here really. We have too many outs against AA (and even 2 against KK) that I don't want to raise the turn and be put in a position of folding 6% equity or whatever. So I don't like raising the turn.

[hobbsmann]

I don't like folding the river because I think, like Will said, there is enough of a chance that the pfr is being stupid with AK. UTG is never beating us here so this isn't a concern directly to have a better hand than us. I'd be really tempted to donk this river as AK/JJ make up a large portion of this guys 3-betting range and IMO both hands will call a river bet. Furthermore, AA/KK probably don't raise the river as a passive guy will fear and oddly played flush/two pair/set. So if you think a bet should go in on the river I like putting it in myself here.

[WillMagic]

I dunno guys. The read we are given is that villain is both a) decent and b) passive. I don't see how this adds up to going insane with AK. Given this read I find it really, really unlikely that villain will make a river bet into a protected pot without having us beat. We might be good 1-25 times if we are lucky.

Heads-up, I call. Against an unknown, I call. But this read combined with a protected pot lets us fold.

Will

[chief444]

Since MP2 is fairly passive...I'd much rather bet/fold the river than check/overcall.

[elindauer]

You're the favorite on the flop, and getting 2:1, I'd check-raise. As a side note you'll pick a lot of information about the 3-bettors hand this way since he will be much less likely to 3-bet a hand that you beat with the 3rd player in the pot as well, and he's already passive to begin with.

Your play is ok, certainly very passive and safe against a passive opponent who is showing strength. When your opponent bets the river into 2 players again, your hand is worth a crying call at best, but I couldn't fold either after showing so little strength.

-Eric

If he's capable of raising AK on the flop, I bet.
If he's not, I play the same but I fold the river.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
You're the favorite on the flop, and getting 2:1, I'd check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was wondering why no one else mentioned this because I thought that with the other guy in there it was the right play, and it makes folding the river an easier decision.

[Pharity]

Why not bet the flop? Are you guys sure he will bet with AK? What if he has 99? And if he has JJ - especially with a club - we want him to fold since he is getting the odds to draw. And of course we don't want him to check JJ.

I'd say its terrible if this flop get checked through.

[pokerOpus]

Why not c/r the flop? I think c/r lets you find out more about MP2's hand plus you arent in terrible shape since you have top pair and the backdoor flush draw.

Also makes the river decision easier if you get 3 bet after the c/r.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're the favorite on the flop, and getting 2:1, I'd check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was wondering why no one else mentioned this because I thought that with the other guy in there it was the right play, and it makes folding the river an easier decision.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I like it. According to his range (AK/AA-TT) you're ahead ~58%. But first you have to estimate how often the pretty passive pfr will bet AK and JJ on this flop against 3 players. If we cut those combos in half (I agree that might be too much) we're only ahead of pfr 40% of the time and remember we're also assuming we're always ahead of UTG. I would say we'll get 3-betted close to always when we're behind. This will fold UTG a pretty good portion of the time, which we don't want since the 3-bet indicates we're always behind and often drawing slim. We're not likely sharing any outs with UTG. So in reality we're not getting 2:1 on our money and we're not ahead as often as we might suspect.

I can see many respected posters like this flop play, but I'm not sure I do. If I think pfr is capable of betting AK/JJ on this flop I go for the check/raise, if not I bet it myself. But it's hard to estimate where the boarderline between these lines goes. Just from the top of my head:

Chance he'll bet AK/JJ=x
x&gt;80% =&gt; check/raise
80%&gt;x&gt;70% =&gt; check/call
70%&gt;x =&gt; bet/call

So I agree there's circumstances where a check/call will be correct. I'm notsure where to put villain in this range since the read is vague, but I think there's a decent chance betting the flop is correct.

[theghost]

[ QUOTE ]
pfr was decently passive

[/ QUOTE ]
Like how? 5% pfr?

Generally, c/r the flop, call down if 3-bet (calling the turn for the flush draw, and a crying TPGK call on the river). If 'pfr' does 3 bet you might also shake UTG.

If no 3-bet, lead the turn. Again, call it down if you get raised. River call sucks but pot size dictates a call imo.

[@bsolute_luck]

why not donk/call the turn? most hands you're beating would check this through, you'd hate if he had A/images/graemlins/club.gifKx and you gave him a free look at the river and if he raises, you can fold the river UI?

[gopnik]

I don't see how you can fold it anywhere and betting will either fold a worse hand or get you in a difficult situation.
I guess you can bet the river.

[elindauer]

Very interesting analysis Nick. I'm going to have to think about this more.

thanks,
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Also makes the river decision easier if you get 3 bet after the c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is obviously true, but don't forget that this information has come at the cost of the big bet you are trying to save... in other words, if you just call, then you have a chance to only put in 1.5 BB postflop, but if you c/r and are 3-bet, then yes, the river decision is easier, but you've already put in 2.5 BB on the flop and turn anyways.

Just pointing out that this is really an incidental advantage to the c/r. The information isn't worth the price you are paying for it, so you still have to feel you are the favorite on the flop after he bets and like the way the hand plays out when you c/r for value, etc.

-Eric

[livinitup0]

[ QUOTE ]
I play mostly 6max. This hand pretty much sucks imo. The pfr was decently passive. Tell me what u do.


PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Button folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.20 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Why arent we raising anywhere?

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems fine. Raising doesn't really do...anything.

The only decision i'm mulling is the river call. A passive player three-bets preflop and then bets that river into a protected pot...i don't know if you are good even 5% of the time here.

The more I think about it...this is a river fold.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are folding this river - why are you calling the turn?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[livinitup0]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno guys. The read we are given is that villain is both a) decent and b) passive. I don't see how this adds up to going insane with AK. Given this read I find it really, really unlikely that villain will make a river bet into a protected pot without having us beat. We might be good 1-25 times if we are lucky.

Heads-up, I call. Against an unknown, I call. But this read combined with a protected pot lets us fold.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, Ive looked this over a few times, weighed the reads, the board, and any other info provided....after 10 minutes more....I still say weak sauce. 1 in 25 if we are lucky? How is that? Have we shown any aggression to prove otherwise or attempt to gather anymore information? The OP's experience at 6max makes this move seem....uncharacteristic.

Seriously if im off base here, please someone explain how?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are folding this river - why are you calling the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
K-high flush draw.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
You're the favorite on the flop, and getting 2:1, I'd check-raise. As a side note you'll pick a lot of information about the 3-bettors hand this way since he will be much less likely to 3-bet a hand that you beat with the 3rd player in the pot as well, and he's already passive to begin with.

Your play is ok, certainly very passive and safe against a passive opponent who is showing strength. When your opponent bets the river into 2 players again, your hand is worth a crying call at best, but I couldn't fold either after showing so little strength.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Well from what I remember while playing this hand, the guy was pretty passive, so to me, his 3bet was a pretty strong move. I figured AA-QQ, AK, AQs. Id seen him cold call JJ before, so Id discount JJ-TT, maybe AQs as well (dunno about AQs part though) Taking out JJ and TT its 12:12 Im ahead or behind. Adding in and discounting JJ and TT by 50 percent (may or may not be totally accurate) we are looking at 15:13.5. my favor (this is taking into account that we are not discoutning AQs and the offsuit AK hands...because obviously if u take out the offsuit AK hands that puts me even farther ahead of his range. And of course if u discount nothing, just making his range AA-TT, AK, AQs we get a lovely 18:15 my favor by a little). I didnt think I was ahead enough to c/r here. Please feel free to correct me if Im wrong. As far as playing this in my usual 6max, I usually always c/r here then sometimes capping the flop bet, sometimes just calling the down the flop 3bet to the river...depending on the opponent (usually capping an aggressive player.)

Also, assuming no improvement on the turn are u calling or folding if u do c/r and get 3bet on the flop (and does your answer change if its a heads up pot or not)

--Dustin

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also say fold the river, but the pot is 13.2 Big Bets large. I guess you can fold if you're confident enough in you read or have PT stats on him over a laaaarge sample size.

[/ QUOTE ]
id value bet JJ/QJ/AT on that river