($33) -ROI help continued: Too many 4ths?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

BB (t270)
Hero (t1275)
Button (t5195)
SB (t1260)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls t100, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t325</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t225.

Flop: (t800) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t800) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero pushes all-in [t950], Button calls t950.



I think I played the hand OK, question is, should I have been playing it at all? Button is very very LAG. I called with the intention of helping kill shortie, but didn't fold to the raise. This guy's PFR is 29% for this session. I tend to play aggressively with any kind of hand against this type of player.


I've been busting out in 4th alot, over my last 205 $33s:

1st: 28
2nd: 18
3rd: 10
4th: 26

For an ITM of 27% and a -ROI. I do think bad luck has been somewhat of a factor... QQ losing to QJ, pushing AJ into AA, etc. But I'm wondering if I should be trying to convert those 4ths into 3rds? Is there such a thing as focusing too much on 1st?

[psyduck]

just fold preflop. if the table has been unusually tight, just raise T275 PF (enough to put BB all in)

limping and calling vs the big stack makes me want to VOMIT

Thanks. Can you explain why? It sounds like it's very obvious to you, and since it's not to me, then I'm assuming this can be a nasty leak.

[curtains]

Holy [censored] calling the preflop raise is flat out TERRIBLE. you must fold there, there is a guy with 150 chips left. What are you doing!!!!!!

The only point of calling to begin with is to gang up on the short stack.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Can you explain why? It sounds like it's very obvious to you, and since it's not to me, then I'm assuming this can be a nasty leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its obvious because your goal is to come in THIRD PLACE!!! not first, but third. Unless the situation drastically changes that should remain your goal. Once you are in third place then you can readjust but for now you are shooting for 3rd place due to the chip distributions. Unless you have an absurdly +EV situation, you are content to just wait things out and finish in the top 3.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Can you explain why? It sounds like it's very obvious to you, and since it's not to me, then I'm assuming this can be a nasty leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to be mean spirited but if you can't see that you butchered this hand, I think you might want to consider dropping down from the 33s until you come to grasp basic SNG concepts.

[curtains]

Agreed with 45suited....this is such a ridiculously large hole that its absurd. You cannot get involved without a monster in a spot where there are 4 left, you are 2nd or 3rd in chips by a longshot, and the 4th place guy has very few chips.

Thanks guys, I appreciate both your advice and your candor.

I started studying poker in October, I've built my BR from $200 to $3900. I play a level until I have enough for 100 buy ins at the next level. As long as I'm above $3300 I want to play $33s. My primary goal is to learn and improve, not yet concerned with just grinding to make money.

As you can tell I'm inexperienced -- however I'm committed to learning. I didn't see anywhere in any FAQ that I should be folding anything but monsters when there is a big stack and a short stack on the bubble. Thanks for pointing it out, sounds like it'll really improve my game. I'm wondering what other obvious things I don't know....


A few more follow up questions. What consitutes a big stack and a short stack? Big stack is 2x+ my stack? Shortie is &lt;3BB? If I have 4xBB, should I be super passive if someones else is &lt;2xBB? What about if I had 5xBB?

Maybe this would be better discussed over AIM...

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Its obvious because your goal is to come in THIRD PLACE!!! not first, but third. Unless the situation drastically changes that should remain your goal. Once you are in third place then you can readjust but for now you are shooting for 3rd place due to the chip distributions. Unless you have an absurdly +EV situation, you are content to just wait things out and finish in the top 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you might get 2nd yet - SB's stack is the same as yours /images/graemlins/grin.gif You won't be getting 2nd or 3rd by pissing about with KQo here though.. that's for definite. I wouldn't even call here with AKo. Well hmm I might but play it very very passively.

[curtains]

Yes but your first goal is to lock up 3rd and then worry about 2nd.

[tigerite]

Of course yeah, goes without saying.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its obvious because your goal is to come in THIRD PLACE!!! not first, but third. Unless the situation drastically changes that should remain your goal. Once you are in third place then you can readjust but for now you are shooting for 3rd place due to the chip distributions. Unless you have an absurdly +EV situation, you are content to just wait things out and finish in the top 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you might get 2nd yet - SB's stack is the same as yours /images/graemlins/grin.gif You won't be getting 2nd or 3rd by pissing about with KQo here though.. that's for definite. I wouldn't even call here with AKo. Well hmm I might but play it very very passively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect that moving allin with AKo preflop is correct unless the big stack is a psycho of some sort. If you think the big stack will call you a lot, then you should even fold AKo here. Most players arent calling 1200 chips without a good hand though.

[bennies]

Like the others have said, calling biggies preflop raise is bad. I don't mind your limp though.

Thanks guys.

FWIW, bigstack turned over 54s and made a boat with 5 on the river.

[chisness]

and BB was very grateful!

[tigerite]

Heh I actually read the action wrong at first and somehow thought you'd called the preflop raise in your own blind, thus my comments on AK. With AK I'd push here, as curtains said, "most" of the time. I think the limp is good if the big stack is prone to folding to the BB or what have you with KQ but you must fold to the raise.

[KingDan]

I hate your limp utg and calling of the raise.
You don't need to gang up on BB, I imagine SB will be attempting to knock him out large portion of the time.


By the time I get to the turn I end up going broke.

[microbet]

Everyone has already addressed the problems with that particular hand. More generally...

[ QUOTE ]
Button is very very LAG....I tend to play aggressively with any kind of hand against this type of player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't sound good. LAG (loose-aggressive) and "any kind" are sufficiently vague that I don't want to say it is flat out horrible. LAGs will generally pay you off when you hit a hand. There is no need to play aggressively before you hit it. They will either push you off when you miss, or pride will fc with you and you will lose a lot of chips with missed overcards, while they paired up with 72o.

[Guthrie]

I'm hardly an expert, but there's no way I'd even limp here, and certainly wouldn't call a raise. If the button has any experience at all, he's going to use that big stack to bully people around. He will almost certainly raise whether you limp or not, forcing BB to call all-in or give up his blind.

All you have to do is stay out of the way another couple of orbits, and unless the short stack gets lucky and doubles up, you're in the money. Let the big stack do the work for you. If he won't, the next guy surely will.

Once you have third locked up you can go for first. Winning first makes your bankroll go up quickly when you hit it, but just winning third nearly every time would give you a fully-funded retirement plan.

[Seadood228]

Jesus 4 handed on level 4 in a $30? Wow.

I actually like the limp here, especially if the big stack is aggro. If he makes his standard raise, often times the shorty will find a fold, but the key is you must also fold here. Those 100 chips are much more valuable to the shorty than you, and limping here is the best way for him to lose them, imo.

So am I spewing chips thinking this?

[Mr_J]

205 is an absolute nothing sample. Yes there is such a thing as focusing too much on 1st, but it's impossible to tell over this sample.

205 is what I have to work with. I understand sample size and the dangers of extrapolating too much information with a small sample. That said, I feel that it's completely asinine to ignore the data you DO have until you have spent the $33k in tourney buyins to get a 1000sng sample size, which, btw, is still too small.

205 is small but not worthless.

FWIW, this is my distribution for my $22s

1st 148 14.3%
2nd 107 10.3%
3rd 102 9.8%
4th 126 12.2%
5th 121 11.7%
6th 135 13.0%
7th 105 10.1%
8th 79 7.6%
9th 74 7.1%
10th 40 3.9%
Total 1037 100.0%

[Mr_J]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that it's completely asinine to ignore the data you DO have until you have spent the $33k in tourney buyins to get a 1000sng sample size

[/ QUOTE ]

You are using your data the wrong way. 205 is worthless for placing distributions, but it's great for analyzing how well you are playing. So either get someone to look over your HHs or post some up. Distribution stats won't help.

I'm already doing both, just throwing the numbers up there in case they mean anything -- thanks for explaining that I shouldn't waste any more time thinking about them.

I don't limp here. I raise just enought to put shortie all in. I doubt I call a reraise, but he wouldn't have have even entered the hand if you'd raised.

Nor do I push when the Q comes. A very Laggy player checking behind on the flop just screams "Trap".