$50 PLO8 hand

I started playing PLO8 a little over a month ago at the $10 and $20 tables, so im just begining at this game, and went to play a little at the 50s.


- 2 sitting in seat 1 with $27.74
- 3 sitting in seat 2 with $47.75
- 4 sitting in seat 3 with $84.70
- ubermensch2k sitting in seat 6 with $24.25
** Dealing card to ubermensch2k: 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif
1 called - $0.50
2 called - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v called - $0.50
w folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
x folded
y called - $0.50
z checked
** Dealing the flop: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif
y checked
z checked
1 checked
2 bet - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
y folded
z folded
1 folded
** Dealing the turn: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif
2 bet - $1.00
3 called - $1.00
4 raised - $4.00
ubermensch2k raised - $7.00
2 called - $7.00
3 called - $7.00
4 called - $7.00
** Dealing the river: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 checked
3 checked
4 bet - $34.00
ubermensch2k went all-in - $16.25
2 folded
3 folded


Preflop: Is this a raise? With that many limpers and A2s i think i should have raised at least to build the pot a little.
Flop: i should have raised here, right?, i dont know what was i thinking.
Turn: bet the pot?

Comments?

What to do: Pot raise flop, pot raise turn.

Why:
1. It's almost certain you have the best hand, so you should be raising for Sklansky Bucks.
2. ^, so you should be charging draws to draw out on you. You won't make anything if they hit.
3. ^, so you should be getting money from second best hands now. They won't pay you anything once they miss, or scare cards come.
3. ^, so you should be building a huge pot to get all in on the turn.
4. It's a happy looking draw heavy board. People will call with a lot of hands, you don't need to be afraid of people folding.
5. This is $50PL, you don't have to be afraid of people folding.
6. It feels good to raise with the nuts.


Preflop is just a call. You've got a fairly spaced out hand that's quite unlikely to flop a scooper. See a flop cheaply.

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I started playing PLO8 a little over a month ago at the $10 and $20 tables, so im just begining at this game, and went to play a little at the 50s.


- 2 sitting in seat 1 with $27.74
- 3 sitting in seat 2 with $47.75
- 4 sitting in seat 3 with $84.70
- ubermensch2k sitting in seat 6 with $24.25
** Dealing card to ubermensch2k: 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif
1 called - $0.50
2 called - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v called - $0.50
w folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
x folded
y called - $0.50
z checked
** Dealing the flop: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif
y checked
z checked
1 checked
2 bet - $0.50
3 called - $0.50
4 called - $0.50
v folded
ubermensch2k called - $0.50
y folded
z folded
1 folded
** Dealing the turn: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif
2 bet - $1.00
3 called - $1.00
4 raised - $4.00
ubermensch2k raised - $7.00
2 called - $7.00
3 called - $7.00
4 called - $7.00
** Dealing the river: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 checked
3 checked
4 bet - $34.00
ubermensch2k went all-in - $16.25
2 folded
3 folded


Preflop: Is this a raise? With that many limpers and A2s i think i should have raised at least to build the pot a little.
Flop: i should have raised here, right?, i dont know what was i thinking.
Turn: bet the pot?

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take my comments with a grain of salt, as I am just learning this game as well.

Pot raise that flop. You have a 2nd nut but vulnerable high, but you have a low backup. It also changes the dynamics of the hand, and will likely make another naked A2 think twice about sticking around. If your high holds up then you want the other lows to chase, but your high is vulnerable. Raising it now may let you avoid getting quartered for the low if your high gets cracked.

Shove it all in on that turn.

Curse that river, as you likely got sucked out on.

Hey, no one said this was easy.

[jthegreat]

Raise preflop. Call the flop. Jam a safe card on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. Call the flop. Jam a safe card on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, care to explain why? I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand. There's no direct equity gain in raising preflop, nor do you knock out any hands that would give you trouble.

And calling the flop is madness imo. The odds are good you have the best hand, and you should be raising it up. The 80% of the time a non flush card comes on the turn, you want a big pot so you can get decent money in. Calling the flop won't achieve that, nor will it make you money from donkeys on draws.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand. There's no direct equity gain in raising preflop, nor do you knock out any hands that would give you trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]
He could very well raise pre-flop, since he has position, and if he raises pre-flop some of the time.

I subscribe to the theory of either raising with a variety of hands, or not raising at all pre-flop (there are obvious exceptions to this).

I play all of the time against extremely transparent players who will ONLY raise pre-flop with AAxx or A2xx. This is the worst strategy imaginable, IMO. I know exactly what they have, and can outplay them easily. In LO8 it is almost suicidal to play like this.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a pre-flop raise here, as long as he does it with more hands than AAxx and A2xx. He definitely has positional advantage.

[FeliciaLee]

Very good analysis. I do the same kind of thinking when I play poker.

[ QUOTE ]
4. It's a happy looking draw heavy board. People will call with a lot of hands, you don't need to be afraid of people folding.
5. This is $50PL, you don't have to be afraid of people folding.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate it when I come to the conclusion that there are so many draws and that so many players saw the flop (with a pot-sized pre-flop raise, I might add), so when I flop the nuts, and pot it, I'm going to get callers for sure. And then the nightmare, everyone folds /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I agree with what you wrote, but I'd rather raise A34x or AKJ9 in this spot than A26T. It's total trash except on a small percentage of flops and will usually end in heartache and pain. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

How much do you propose raising here? Pot? And how do follow up on what will likely be a totally missed flop? On a two low flop? The trouble with raising low equity, low playability hands like this is that unless you follow through with bluffs, you become transparent post flop when you do hit.

[FeliciaLee]

Yeah. Agreed. That is one of the many reasons I love PLO8 so much.

I personally wouldn't raise this hand unless it was passed to me in LP. In cash games that is something I employ, whereas I usually don't raise other hands. I'm definitely more of a post-flop PLO8 player than pre. Might be coming from my LO8 beginnings.

I had forgotten how much I love PLO8. In the past two months I've been out of the USA most of the time, taking cruises out of San Diego (down to Mexico).

I had time to get my head straight following chemo. I was trying to clear things up before playing real stakes poker again.

In some ways I succeeded, in others I failed. Definitely my abilities are not that of pre-chemo. I am now finally able to admit that. But they are coming back. I already feel more focused than I did just last week.

Okay, so I have hijacked this thread for my own purpose, lol. I meant to make a post on these two forums to update everyone, but I just never got around to it. I will try to do that today.

At any rate, I tried to get a PLO8 game going on the CardPlayer cruise, but no one would go for it, not even for tiny blinds like .50/1 (they had brown .50 chips). I guess they figured that if they busted, they didn't have access to more money, like a land-casino. Maybe they thought it I was suggesting the game, I must know how to play, lol.

Last night was my first foray back into PLO8 (online, of course). I'd utterly forgotten how much I enjoy the game.

And yes, I am a self-confessed nutpeddler /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
Um, care to explain why? I see no advantage to a preflop raise, you have [censored] all chance of flopping anything playable with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think that an A2s has some kind of equity edge against 5 preflop callers when you're in position? How weak-tight do you play? He should pot this or at least put in a big raise.

[ QUOTE ]
And calling the flop is madness imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen different players advocate different plays when you are holding a vulnerable nuts. I don't have a problem with jamming the flop, but I also don't have a problem with calling the flop and jamming the turn.

<font color="blue">A2s has an equity edge in LP against 5 callers</font>

Not this A2s. It's getting a playable flop with positive expectation less than 10% of the time (and then just barely). And five callers are bad for your likely equity, not good. You'll just about never make a decent high with this hand and you're likely splitting for low if it does come (or getting counterfeited). I believe you're directly losing money by raising this preflop.

<font color="blue">How weak-tight do you play?</font>

Did you read my reply to Felicia above? I'd rather raise A34x or KQJ9 in position than this particular hand.

<font color="blue">I've seen different players advocate different plays when you are holding a vulnerable nuts. I don't have a problem with jamming the flop, but I also don't have a problem with calling the flop and jamming the turn.</font>

This is a unique hand, not a generic 'vulnerable nuts' hand. It's very different to say, top set on a two flush, two straight board. You have a hand that's likely the best, and is still likely to be good on the turn. You have to start jamming the flop and making money from inferior hands at this point. There are a huge number of inferior hands that will pay you off now but won't later if scare cards come or their draw suddenly doesn't look as good with one card to come. And you have to build a big enough pot so you can all in on the turn if you hand is still good.

This is NOT a hand to wait and see if the turn is a safe card. Your equity is unlikely to increase past its current point with another card. This is very different to say top set on two low, two flush board where a safe turn card will increase your equity greatly.

[jthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
Not this A2s. It's getting a playable flop with positive expectation less than 10% of the time (and then just barely). And five callers are bad for your likely equity, not good. You'll just about never make a decent high with this hand and you're likely splitting for low if it does come (or getting counterfeited). I believe you're directly losing money by raising this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure +EV less than 10% of the time? Next, you're also discounting the effect of bluffing the flop in position. Or you can take a free card if it's checked to you. There are several good reasons to raise this hand. No it's not a premium hand. Yes, it could be better. But it's still a hand worth raising in position.

[ QUOTE ]
This is NOT a hand to wait and see if the turn is a safe card. Your equity is unlikely to increase past its current point with another card.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's incorrect. It will increase, and significantly so, depending on your opponents' cards. In either case, I've already said I don't think it's a bad play either way.

[FeliciaLee]

Okay, since I like to mess around with two dimes, I did some sims.

If six people see the flop with this hand (as was the case, if I'm reading it correctly), here are the pre-flop percentages:

6s Ad 2d Th 10459 20527 77753 0 38431 26752 4592 0.329
Qs Js 4h 2h 2934 8476 87670 2134 13809 36696 3632 0.132
Ks Qd Ah 3h 4884 13276 84067 937 13809 36696 3632 0.167
4s 8c 3d 7h 4652 27957 69879 444 7679 67809 2672 0.203
Tc 9c Jd Qh 3425 9030 82342 6908 0 0 0 0.084
Ts Kc Qc Jh 1213 11041 79710 7529 0 0 0 0.085

I just put in five random hands, along with the OP's real hand. I gave only him the A2, but made sure some of the other hands were suited, as well.

Surprise, surprise. He should raise it up. Of course, this is assuming that 1) no one else has an A2, suited or otherwise, 2) someone DOES have a likely second best low (A3), 3) the other hands really ARE this lousy.

So, I guess this is something to think about, and I'll address Phil's likely scenario (versus what really happened) in the next post...

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
How much do you propose raising here? Pot? And how do follow up on what will likely be a totally missed flop? On a two low flop? The trouble with raising low equity, low playability hands like this is that unless you follow through with bluffs, you become transparent post flop when you do hit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, let's say that the other hands really are as icky as the sim. Theoretically we should raise the pot (in position, knowing likely everyone will call the full raise).

And then, Phil's first scenario: A missed flop...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1413317
pokenum -o8 ad 2d 6s th - 2h 4h js qs - ah 3h qd ks - 3d 4s 7h 8c - 9c tc jd qh - ts jh qc kc -- td 7c kh
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 300 enumerated boards containing 7c Td Kh
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Ad 2d Th 17 17 283 0 85 36 0 0.188
Qs Js 4h 2h 0 0 216 84 24 53 0 0.118
Ks Qd Ah 3h 23 26 273 1 24 53 0 0.122
4s 8c 3d 7h 35 44 256 0 4 117 0 0.138
Tc 9c Jd Qh 3 37 179 84 0 0 0 0.145
Ts Kc Qc Jh 34 92 124 84 0 0 0 0.288

Once again, surprise, surprise. We're really not in that bad of shape. And lucky us, we have position over the guy with the wrap. Having position here would be a big advantage, imo.

So I have to assume that this guy is going to lead right out. I mean, he would be a fool not to, and although there are several hundred fools at the PLO850 tables, most aren't this foolish. They usually lead right out when they hit.

So where does that lead us? Well, I'm assuming he will lead out, and everyone else will drop. With this kind of expected value do we call? Do we call a half sized bet? Pot sized? If we absolutely know we will be HU? If we know that no further bets can be made and we will receive two free cards (assuming one player is all-in)? If we assume we will fold on fourth if we don't improve?

What say the mob?

[Wolffink]

As has been pointed out how you play the preflop is variable. If you sometimes raise and sometimes call with this hand it's fine. I'd put it 75% raising in late position and 25% calling. I might not raise the pot as I think my hand is okay multi-way and not so great with limited number of callers. There's no counterfeit protection and no real opportunities for high except the A-2 flush draw. You've got a good hand, but not a great hand. You might have preflop equity but when you raise you not only have to think about people calling your raise but if you're the favorite when you're re-raised. You're going to be folding this hand on the flop a lot.

Here if do raise and then you are re-raised preflop you are a dawg. Besides aces, you don't want to face a hand like A-2-3-K or even A-2-4-x.

The flop you just call. You're sandbagging. Sometimes this works. I think it worked here. You also get to see a safe card and if your low card comes, you're cooking with gas. If it comes high--well you know your str8 already is vulnerable to a higher str8, a flush, or a full house. So there's something to be said for waiting. The turn card might ruin everything and make you a dawg. The other option I like is to raise it a $1 or $2--and just build the pot. I'd want to see about everyone just call it and not someone raise and blow everyone out.

The turn comes favorable and you pull the trigger. You make it look easy.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]

A2s has an equity edge in LP against 5 callers

Not this A2s. It's getting a playable flop with positive expectation less than 10% of the time (and then just barely). And five callers are bad for your likely equity, not good….

[/ QUOTE ]

This is flat out wrong. A2 has better equity with more callers. And it’s ability to continue is higher than just about any other 2-card combo. And it is almost certainly higher than fair share equity barring weird hands taking your outs.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe you're directly losing money by raising this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely game dependent. There are definitely games where raising this preflop is profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
You have a hand that's likely the best, and is still likely to be good on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any A,2,7,8,9,T,J or club makes a potentially better hand for high or low. Only 3,4,5,6,Q,K without clubs leave you in this position. So with multiple opponents who have something they can call with here, it’s unlikely your hand will still be as good.


[ QUOTE ]
You have to start jamming the flop and making money from inferior hands at this point….This is NOT a hand to wait and see if the turn is a safe card. Your equity is unlikely to increase past its current point with another card. This is very different to say top set

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree

-g

[DOMIT]

Are you asking if we'd continue with this same hand given the flop of :

7c Td Kh

??

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you asking if we'd continue with this same hand given the flop of :

7c Td Kh

??

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, one of many discussions I was hoping would spring up.

Interesting hand. Personally, I'd raise the max preflop, and then given this flop, bet/raise the max.

However, if you just call preflop as you did, then I like the way you play the flop (just call). It is possible you are drawing dead for high, so you don't want to initiate a raising war on that street in a pot that's unraised PF. Analogous to the adage "don't go broke in an unraised pot" from NLHE. However, once that turn completes your low, raise the max when the action gets to you. Here you're hoping to pressure all the flush &amp; boat draws out of the hand, as well as any other 6-T straight out there that currently ties you. Your hand is a powerhouse b/c it uses all 4 cards; opponents will have a hard time giving you credit for such a strong 2-way hand and will frequently draw &amp; pay you even if you bet the max.



On the tangent about whether to raise this hand preflop, I'd raise it close to 100% of the time, almost regardless of position (depends on tendencies of other spots in the game). A2 with suits and the 6 is a big hand, building a pot early is a good idea, not to mention that if you aren't raising this type of hand PF then it will make achieving a high enough PFR % to disguise your very big hands difficult.

[gergery]

what is your plan on the turn if a non-low, non-club hits (i.e most of the deck), esp. since most sane people with the nut straight and no redraws here are not going to war on that flop?

-g

[ QUOTE ]

6s Ad 2d Th 10459 20527 77753 0 38431 26752 4592 0.329
Qs Js 4h 2h 2934 8476 87670 2134 13809 36696 3632 0.132
Ks Qd Ah 3h 4884 13276 84067 937 13809 36696 3632 0.167
4s 8c 3d 7h 4652 27957 69879 444 7679 67809 2672 0.203
Tc 9c Jd Qh 3425 9030 82342 6908 0 0 0 0.084
Ts Kc Qc Jh 1213 11041 79710 7529 0 0 0 0.085

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL Felicia - did you deliberately choose hands that overlapped each other, had not a single pair, no other A2, and only two diamonds out of 20 cards? Funny stuff. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Let's make this a bit more realistic - the expected number of diamonds, the expected number of aces, a single pair of 10s, and an A2. 40 cards have been dealt out...flush cards, low hands, aces and pairs are selected for. This is a completely realistic average case scenario, not best case. I haven't even included any big hands or even A23:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1414504
6s Ad 2d Th 2610 11923 86252 105 1959 17154 39235 0.183
Qs Js 4h 2h 5489 11344 85110 1826 8111 33147 900 0.124
2s Qd Ah 5h 4094 9975 87375 930 9109 11844 39235 0.214
4s 8c 7d 3d 7152 28229 69988 63 5900 51616 432 0.204
Tc 5c Td Qh 8980 15164 83057 59 0 0 0 0.123
Ac Kc Qc Jd 8998 18948 76803 2529 0 0 0 0.153

Oops, where did our equity go? I agree that you do have a small equity edge preflop, but this hand is completely unplayable postflop except on a small number of flops. When money is going in, it will mostly be a money loser as it will rarely be a nut hand. Compare A29T or A266 with A26T for the chances of flopping a high equity hand, and the problem with this hand might become clearer (even though preflop equity doesn't change that much). Preflop to river equity doesn't give the whole story here.

Next step when I get time: add up the number of favorable flops six handed and work out how often we flop a decent, PLAYABLE hand that can make money (unless Buzz wants to do it for me /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a hand that's likely the best, and is still likely to be good on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any A,2,7,8,9,T,J or club makes a potentially better hand for high or low. Only 3,4,5,6,Q,K without clubs leave you in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just monster think. I agree the hand is vulnerable, but the only killer cards are A,2, maybe a ten, or a club. The others are a matter of probability, and more often than not a 7,8,9 won't give a full house, and a J or T won't give a higher straight. The only way all those cards are dangerous is if someone has a set or top two, another has bottom two, AND another has QJ, AND yet another has QT. So on the balance of probabilities, if your hand is good already, it's still very likely to be good on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
what is your plan on the turn if a non-low, non-club hits (i.e most of the deck), esp. since most sane people with the nut straight and no redraws here are not going to war on that flop?

-g

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, OP has a short stack. So if he had raised max PF and then potted it on the flop, he's nearly all-in (with OP's short stack) or at the very least easily committed. So in that case, no matter what turn card comes, he'd be best served by shoving whatever he has left.

If the same PF raise and flop max-bet transpired but stacks were deep, so that hero &amp; villains weren't committed, then if it checks to me, I would check behind (or consider folding to an EP pot-sized bet) on a T, J, or board pair, but would pot it again on a Q or K (it would be difficult to believe somebody's going to check the nut str twice on a board like that). If somebody from EP bets on a Q or K, I would probably call.

Given the way it was played, limped PF and just called on the flop, any bad turn card is an easy check-behind.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL Felicia - did you deliberately choose hands that overlapped each other, had not a single pair, no other A2, and only two diamonds out of 20 cards? Funny stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I wish I could say I was being cute or clever. The plain truth is, however, that I simply can't think and process the way I used to. I have a hard time telling ranks and suits apart. I had a difficult enough time just making six, unduplicated hands, much less try to put any kind of real action into them. Sure, I knew I was giving them subpar hands, but that is about all I could process at the time. Sorry /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I did, however, purposely leave out any other suited ace with A2. Because in my limited experience in the $50 PLO8, these hands are usually raised pre-flop.

Not if you're playing me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I had a difficult enough time just making six, unduplicated hands, much less try to put any kind of real action into them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me too. Just changing a few cards in your list kept getting me that annoying red message in twodimes:

<font color="red">error: duplicate card Ks</font>

Really [censored] annoying!

[ QUOTE ]
that is about all I could process at the time. Sorry

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't sweat it Felicia, you give quality responses and I wouldn't have considered a bad A2 had that much equity without your post. And please don't apologise when you give better responses than most of the people on this site. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
6s Ad 2d Th 2610 11923 86252 105 1959 17154 39235 0.183
Qs Js 4h 2h 5489 11344 85110 1826 8111 33147 900 0.124
2s Qd Ah 5h 4094 9975 87375 930 9109 11844 39235 0.214
4s 8c 7d 3d 7152 28229 69988 63 5900 51616 432 0.204
Tc 5c Td Qh 8980 15164 83057 59 0 0 0 0.123
Ac Kc Qc Jd 8998 18948 76803 2529 0 0 0 0.153

Oops, where did our equity go? I agree that you do have a small equity edge preflop, but this hand is completely unplayable postflop except on a small number of flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still wrong.

It doesn't matter if you only continue past the flop on a small number of flops. What matters is how much you make on those hands that you do.