20-40: Ooodles of potential dead money out there

[Clarkmeister]

20-40. New player posts $20 in between the button and the SB. I am also new and post $20 in the Cutoff. 3.5sbs in the pot before the hand starts.

Weak player open limps in MP. Unknown on my immediate right raises. I look down and see KsQd, all those lovely single bets in the middle of the table and 3-bet.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Clarkmeister,

If you hadn't posted your own blind this is only a slightly reckless three bet with normal blinds. You can't fold so with two extra big blinds three betting just has to be better than calling. I'd also be prepared to take one off on the flop if it comes undercards.

~ Rick

[hutz]

I like it. Did you post this because you think there's some reason you shouldn't have 3-bet?

[Clarkmeister]

I just wanted to see if anyone thought it was even close. You like it so it must not be, considering that in my one session with you I saw you play like 1 hand in 2 hours. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[bruce]

Your certainly not going to fold with all this dead money
and the guy on your right probably raising it light. Hell,
if you're going to play the hand putting in three bets and
taking the initiative has to be the best way to play the hand.

Bruce

[DaBartman]

I feel it is always a mistake to open limp in a pot with all that money in it to start. Raise or muck it. Back to subject: I like your 3-bet, most likely correct given your post. You get the initative and a great image if anyone sees your hand.

[hillbilly]

do you think it is possible to be a winning poker player and yet routinely fold to the raise in this situation?

your friend, tighty mcwhitey... (who knows if he tried this he would likely just be starting off his session stuck 200 bucks or so)

[Zele]

I agree; this play would seem almost automatic to me, unless you know something about the raiser that you haven't shared.

[hillbilly]

"unless you know something about the raiser that you haven't shared."

that's just it, the raiser is "unknown", and i am more willing that most i guess to give him credit for a hand until i know more.

one way to find out more is to sit patiently and watch the proceedings until your big blind rolls around...which is pure torture for most folks but i can endure it...

[David Steele]

"I feel it is always a mistake to open limp in a pot with all that money in it to start."

I don't quite agree. One reason for open raising is having a chance at stealing the blinds or getting it heads up with your good heads-up hand. Some hands are now going to have to be folded ( e.g weak aces ) and others may be better to limp with (9-10s), while still raising with your good and better hands.

D.

[droidboy]

Yes, folding wouldn't be horrible in this situation. However, it is the worst of the three (raising, calling, folding).

On the other hand, as a winning 20/40 player, I can't remember the last time I started the session down $200, but I'm sure it was less than a week ago. It's just not something that's worth thinking about. It's like remembering the last time I was dealt J5o. It happens, but why would I waste my brain thinking about it.

[bad beetz]

I like it.

would you do it with a medium pocket pair or call and look for a set?

[ACBob]

"all those lovely single bets in the middle of the table and 3-bet."

OK, just let it go if you miss the flop.

[Clarkmeister]

I would tend to call. My position relative to the raiser gives me first right to raise on the flop if I miss my set, but the board comes ragged. For example, I call with 66 and the flop is T42. I love the chance to eliminate the field with a raise. Of course, this same position can hurt me if I flop a set and the board is similarly uncoordinated, but I'll only flop a set 1 in 8 times and many of those times the board will be coordinated enough that I won't mind being able to clear out a few gutshots.

[Clarkmeister]

"do you think it is possible to be a winning poker player and yet routinely fold to the raise in this situation? "

Of course.

[Clarkmeister]

"OK, just let it go if you miss the flop"

Depends on what you mean by miss the flop. There will be a minimum of 9.5sbs in the pot on the flop, 10.5 if someone bets into me. You've got to be real sure that you are screwed to be folding headsup or 3 ways with a pot that big.

[Clarkmeister]

I 3-bet and everyone folded back to the initial raiser.

Flop came like Ts 7c 3s, check-bet-call
Turn was like a 5d, check-bet-call
River was Qs, check-bet-call, my hand was good.

[Zele]

In the games I'm used to, this dead money would be bait for just about anyone, so I would treat the 3-bet as a re-steal (or more accurately, a "re-isolation") targeted at the raiser. However, I agree that if Clarkmeister was new to this field of players, waiting for the BB would be the prudent move (even more prudent would be waiting a couple of BB's, though this is tougher to pull off in a B&M cardroom.)

[SoBeDude]

I don't quite agree. One reason for open raising is having a chance at stealing the blinds or getting it heads up with your good heads-up hand. Some hands are now going to have to be folded ( e.g weak aces ) and others may be better to limp with (9-10s), while still raising with your good and better hands.

Since the hands that are 'in' are blinds and postings, they're going to have 'average' cards. this means most of them are unplayable for one bet, nevermind two or three.

3 betting here is a great play as it will usually push out even the blinds/posts that would have called the single raise, and leaves you in position against the PF raiser.

Also now if the PF raiser misses, a flop bet will win this pot outright.

-Scott

[David Steele]

I agree with the three-bet here after someone else raised, my response was to the claim that one should "always" open-raise when there are playing with extra posters.

Re-read the sentence I quoted in my post.

D.

[tj00]

Would you have still bet the river if it was a blank?

[rkiray]

Yeah,

I'm almost positive that HPFAP says that when someone post you actually need a better hand than normal to raise with because there are more people and more money in the pot it is less likely that you pick the pot up right away. Everyone I've read in this thread until you seems to think the other way. Can anyone explain why?

That said reraising someone on your immediate right makes more sense than open raising since the other players now face calling two bets instead of one.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you have still bet the river if it was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I certainly have enough of a chance relative to the pot to make a big ace fold, and even if he calls with a better hand, it will pay dividends for the rest of the session, especially since I just sat down.