all in or stop and go?

9 handed, CO+1 open raises i'm in bb w/ TT. Blinds at 100/200, I have 1520 before posting the 200 he has like 8,000. He raised w/ a KJ from CO+3 earlier and called a check raise all in w/ the KJ on an AJrag board of two clubs (he had no clubs). So I know I have no fold equity but is my hand too big here not to reraise pre-flop? Or should I go with a standard stop and go push which would be a $920 bet into a $1300 pot.

[KneeCo]

I'm AI pf.

You're ahead of his range, and as such want to
a) charge him full price to see a flop to try to get lucky.
b) not let him get away from a hand that completely misses the flop.

[Lloyd]

I think this is a perfect spot for a stop and go. You'll be acting first on the flop. You're ahead of his range. You have no folding equity. And there's a better chance that he has overcards then a smaller pair.

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a perfect spot for a stop and go. You'll be acting first on the flop. You're ahead of his range. You have no folding equity. And there's a better chance that he has overcards then a smaller pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand.
Assuming he has over and you use the stop n go:
If he hits, he calls and you would have wanted a fold.
If he misses, he folds and you would have wanted a call.
(read on the villain suggests strongly we wont be able to get him to fold if he hits middle pair or something).

[Lloyd]

A perfect application of the stop and go is a pair versus overcards. If you push, he'll call and see five cards. If you stop and go and he misses, he'll fold and only see three cards. So you're more likely to win the pot by utilizing a stop and go, even if the pot is slightly smaller. Add in some possibility of him having a slightly bigger pair (like JJ) and folding to a scary board and it's an even better spot.

Just what I want to hear, two quality players arguing each side of the coin. I guess it comes down to is it more important to win a smaller pot a higher % of the time? Or get all my money in pre as a slight favorite, therefore winning a larger pot less than if I used a stop and go. Another question say I were to have done a stop and go, and the flop comes T52, should I just check here and let him put me AI? Or does that reveal too much about my hand after calling so much of my stack preflop?

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop comes T52, should I just check here and let him put me AI? Or does that reveal too much about my hand after calling so much of my stack preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No brainer... check. If he would potentially fold to the stop and go, you can't afford to lose him here.

Thats what I thought but it just seems so obvious that I have a good hand, kinda like someone in limit who 3 bets preflop then checks on a K rag rag flop, you just know he has KK, well at least at 5/10 and lower I know for sure.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats what I thought but it just seems so obvious that I have a good hand, kinda like someone in limit who 3 bets preflop then checks on a K rag rag flop, you just know he has KK, well at least at 5/10 and lower I know for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference here is that you weren't a pre-flop aggressor. Check, let him put you all in and go "Wheeeeeeeeeee"

[KneeCo]

I'm still bugged by this hand.

Now that the OP is here, what's CO+1, what's the buyin and, if you recall, what's your image at the table?

[woodguy]

I think its worth the risk of tying him to the pot to call PF, then c/r all in on the flop.

It maximizes chips and often the guys who cannot fold PF are the ones who fold when odds dictate they should call with overcards on moves like these.

Give a LAG a chance to bet.

I could be wrong, I often am.

Regards,
Woodguy

[ QUOTE ]
9 handed, CO+1 open raises i'm in bb w/ TT. Blinds at 100/200, I have 1520 before posting the 200 he has like 8,000. He raised w/ a KJ from CO+3 earlier and called a check raise all in w/ the KJ on an AJrag board of two clubs (he had no clubs). So I know I have no fold equity but is my hand too big here not to reraise pre-flop? Or should I go with a standard stop and go push which would be a $920 bet into a $1300 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what CO+1 and CO+3 means. Wouldn't CO+1 be the button and I don't know where CO+3 puts us? Is this supposed to be UTG?

[JohnG]

There's no way on earth I am using the stop and go in this spot, considering the wide range he could have. Give me a lower pp like 66 or a hand like A9 before I think stop and go.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way on earth I am using the stop and go in this spot, considering the wide range he could have. Give me a lower pp like 66 or a hand like A9 before I think stop and go.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. A stop and go here gets too many correct folds out of him on the flop, and too many correct calls as well. A push preflop gets some correct calls by him (overs) but lots of bad ones too (Ax, smaller pair, etc.). I'm not as concerned with fold equity here as much as I am about doubling through.

[locutus2002]

If you are ahead of his range you shouldn't consider a stop n go.

Stop n go is useful when:
1) you have no FE BTF but may have some ATF and
2) you are not ahead of his range

small pairs are best.

[centja1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its worth the risk of tying him to the pot to call PF, then c/r all in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're better off pushing all-in pre-flop if this is our plan. All we accomplish by CR all-in on the flop is creating a situation where one time out of three we're putting our money in with very little equity.

If we're ahead of his range and we're sure he's gonna call the PF all-in and our goal is to get all of our money to the center, then simply push before the flop. CR all-in would be a better line against an aggressive player who can find the fold button if he bets the flop with whiffed cards.

Against the lag in this hand, we should avoid FPS and just move-in. it at least assures us that we're getting our money in as a favorite.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a perfect spot for a stop and go. You'll be acting first on the flop. You're ahead of his range. You have no folding equity. And there's a better chance that he has overcards then a smaller pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the purpose of an SnG to increase fold equity? If we think we have none with villian, what's the point of going from none to tiny? I say push right away and don't give villian a chance to hit.

OP said that villian is capable of calling with second pair, ie we have even less FE on the flop than normal. He called with KJ on a AJx board that was two suited having no clubs. It sounds like an awful call, presumably against a shorty, but it also means villian won't be bluffed off his hand if he hits. This is virtually the same situation we're in. The purpose of an SnG is to try to get someone to fold a hamd they might have won with otherwise (ie the better hand), but villian has shown that he's not one to get pushed off a hand, especially against a shorty. So the SnG is simply unlikely to work here.

Incidently, villian could have just been raising to steal, pushing PF could just make villian say "ok take it" and we win a reasonable pot. Calling allows him to hit his A3 when he would have otherwise folded.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
Just what I want to hear, two quality players arguing each side of the coin. I guess it comes down to is it more important to win a smaller pot a higher % of the time? Or get all my money in pre as a slight favorite, therefore winning a larger pot less than if I used a stop and go. Another question say I were to have done a stop and go, and the flop comes T52, should I just check here and let him put me AI? Or does that reveal too much about my hand after calling so much of my stack preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm checking here every time. Your read makes him sound pretty agro. There's no way you're getting away from a set there (or really any set), might as well do your darndest to make him committ more chips.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming he has over and you use the stop n go:
If he hits, he calls and you would have wanted a fold.
If he misses, he folds and you would have wanted a call.
(read on the villain suggests strongly we wont be able to get him to fold if he hits middle pair or something).

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. If he has a KQ or something and misses the flop, we'll be a 3:1 favourite so we don't want to give him the chance to fold his hand without paying us the extra 920 chips. And if he has an A7 or something like that, we'll be 5:1 on the flop if he misses, so we especially don't want to give him the chance to fold.

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
And if he has an A7 or something like that, we'll be 5:1 on the flop if he misses, so we especially don't want to give him the chance to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still very torn about this hand.

The way I look at this hand is, how can I get this guy to make a mistake?

If we push pf here, calling with A7 would not be a mistake (or any one over card hand). Calling with A high after missing the flop would be.

I'm not saying go for the stop and go, just something to think about.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if he has an A7 or something like that, we'll be 5:1 on the flop if he misses, so we especially don't want to give him the chance to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still very torn about this hand.

The way I look at this hand is, how can I get this guy to make a mistake?

If we push pf here, calling with A7 would not be a mistake (or any one over card hand). Calling with A high after missing the flop would be.

I'm not saying go for the stop and go, just something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But if he folds 44 on a AK5 flop then he's NOT making a mistake, one we want him to make. I think just in general the overall strength of your hand against his hand range is enough that you want all his money in the pot. But I'm not sure.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
I think just in general the overall strength of your hand against his hand range is enough that you want all his money in the pot. But I'm not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my mind, the stop and go is for vulnerable hands you still think are likely best, (Say A5o as an example). It's not for those times where we can easily be called by hands we have buried.

Hands like A5, 44, KQ can easily be the best hand against a steal raise, but is not likely far in front when it is, and when you happen to be beat, your allin bet on the flop may fold out some of those better hands such as 66 or A8. TT or AK on the other hand can be significantly in front and should probably get the money in preflop.

[gergery]

I'm all in here. TT is too big a hand to stopngo and lets him get away too cheaply from a wide range of hands that would call here, including lower pairs, lower connectors, Qx/Kx/Ax where x is lower than T.

-g

[mlagoo]

i'm pretty sure this could all be solved with math, but im not very good at math /images/graemlins/blush.gif

it would look something like...

(1) if we stop and go
(a) x1% of the time, villian pairs an overcard on the flop and we get it allin drawing to 2 outs.
(b) x2% of the time, villian had an overpair preflop and we get it allin drawing to 2 outs.
(c) x3% of the time, villian "makes a big call" with unpaired overcards and we get it allin with villian drawing to 6 outs.
(d) x4% of the time, villian "makes a big call" with an underpair and we get it allin with villian drawing to 2 or 5 outs.
(e) x5% of the time, villian does not connect and folds and we take down the 1300 chips in the pot.

(2) if we push preflop
(a) x1% of the time, we get it allin on the good side of a race
(b) x2% of the time, we get it allin as an 80/20 fav.
(c) x3% of the time, we get it allin as a 20/80 dog.
(d) x4% of the time, we get it allin as a ~70/30 fav (i am home for christmas and dont have any of my poker tools with me) against a hand like A8.
(e) x5% of the time, villian picks up some wierd draw on the flop and we get it allin with villian drawing to 8-15 outs twice.
(e) x6% of the time, villian folds and we take down the 900 chips in the pot.

and i think thats everything.

now all that has to be done is to give villian a CO opening range and a preflop and postflop calling range, and crunch numbers. this is where things get a bit fuzzy for me.

considering the situation intuitively, i think its more profitable to push preflop.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I look at this hand is, how can I get this guy to make a mistake?

If we push pf here, calling with A7 would not be a mistake (or any one over card hand). Calling with A high after missing the flop would be.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but you also want to avoid making "mistakes" yourself (such as pushing the flop those times an ace does hit the board).

"How can I get my opponent to make a mistake" is not that useful a way of approaching problems like this because what's really important is the size of the mistake being made.