c'r turn to save bets here?

[DcifrThs]

playing a good game and a loose aggressive guy opens in EMP gets called by 3 people folded to me in the BB w/ AA i 3 bet he caps they all call

flop is Q95rb i bet out he raises all fold inexplicably to me and i call.

turn is Tx i c'r ...good spot to c'r to save bets?

Barron

[worm33]

i think the concept would be better applied by check calling turn and check-raising river. I actualy like this line the best as it looks like AK and hes going to bet any pair on river, and your CR will confuse the crap out of him.

[sthief09]

no, you have too many outs too often to fold the turn. it would make a lot more sense with AQ. when i have AA and it's headsup i'm not usually looking to save bets. also, i'd pump the flop. this is a good action flop. i would 3-bet, call a cap, and checkraise the turn (or bet if he didn't cap)

why are you not three betting this flop?

[Justin A]

I fail to see how checkraising the turn saves you bets.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how checkraising the turn saves you bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how checkraising the turn saves you bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

at this juncture i was considering mostlythat i was going to either bet/3bet or c'r. im seeing a showdown either way. he can have the other AA/KK. or he could have QQ/TT/QT or AQs or maybe AQ etc...if i bet/3bet he really only caps QQ/QT/TT most of the time. so i lose an extre bet by bet/3betting and check calling river rather than checkraise/calling a 3bet check call river when im behind.

when im ahead we get fewer bets in by c'r than by bet/3betting. thats what i was weighing

Barron

[ALL1N]

My understanding of CR'ing (or using any aggressive play) to "save bets" is that the opponent is supposed to call you down with a better hand, which can't really occur here.

Anyhow, I'm definitely in favour of bet 3-betting here, especially as you say QT is in his range.

[TheBusiness]

I understand how you'd be saving bets with the checkraise, but I don't understand why you'd want to save bets when you are most likely ahead. I thought you described this guy as loose aggressive, so what makes you think you're behind on the turn? And if you really think you're behind, you can save more bets by just check-calling him down. Is he a big enough fish to cap a hand like Q10 or 99 preflop? If not, the only hand you really need to be worrying about here is QQ, otherwise I think you're probably still ahead on the turn.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand how you'd be saving bets with the checkraise, but I don't understand why you'd want to save bets when you are most likely ahead. I thought you described this guy as loose aggressive, so what makes you think you're behind on the turn? And if you really think you're behind, you can save more bets by just check-calling him down. Is he a big enough fish to cap a hand like Q10 or 99 preflop? If not, the only hand you really need to be worrying about here is QQ, otherwise I think you're probably still ahead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

he definately is capable of capping 99 or QT pf. thats why i thought to use the c'r to save bets concept. otherwise i think bet/call check call is best

Barron

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand how you'd be saving bets with the checkraise, but I don't understand why you'd want to save bets when you are most likely ahead. I thought you described this guy as loose aggressive, so what makes you think you're behind on the turn? And if you really think you're behind, you can save more bets by just check-calling him down. Is he a big enough fish to cap a hand like Q10 or 99 preflop? If not, the only hand you really need to be worrying about here is QQ, otherwise I think you're probably still ahead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

he definately is capable of capping 99 or QT pf. thats why i thought to use the c'r to save bets concept. otherwise i think bet/call check call is best

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop probably should have been an auto 3 bet. But given your flop line, I think check calling the turn and checkraising the river is very much superior to bet call check call. A lot of times when he bets the without taking a free showdown after you bet the turn, your hand will not be best and he probably will not bet jj or any other strong pair but not top pair/overpair.

But after you check call the turn he will 100% bet any pair on the river because it looks 100% that you have AK high. This play is superior for metagame reasons, and to get the most money in when the hopefuly best hand

[TheBusiness]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand how you'd be saving bets with the checkraise, but I don't understand why you'd want to save bets when you are most likely ahead. I thought you described this guy as loose aggressive, so what makes you think you're behind on the turn? And if you really think you're behind, you can save more bets by just check-calling him down. Is he a big enough fish to cap a hand like Q10 or 99 preflop? If not, the only hand you really need to be worrying about here is QQ, otherwise I think you're probably still ahead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

he definately is capable of capping 99 or QT pf. thats why i thought to use the c'r to save bets concept. otherwise i think bet/call check call is best

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop probably should have been an auto 3 bet. But given your flop line, I think check calling the turn and checkraising the river is very much superior to bet call check call. A lot of times when he bets the without taking a free showdown after you bet the turn, your hand will not be best and he probably will not bet jj or any other strong pair but not top pair/overpair.

But after you check call the turn he will 100% bet any pair on the river because it looks 100% that you have AK high. This play is superior for metagame reasons, and to get the most money in when the hopefuly best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this strategy. When you're ahead with AA, you miss several bets by check-calling the turn and check-raising the river. If he checks behind the river, your hand is definitely good and you just missed at least one bet, and probably two because you failed to put in a raise anywhere on the turn. I prefer the turn checkraise, river check-call over that. But I think what I most prefer is a turn bet-call, river check-call (or bet if he didn't raise the turn). AA has enough showdown value here that you don't usually want to put only one bet in on the turn and risk putting in no bets on the river.

[Justin A]

Barron,

I've never heard of CRing the turn to save bets before and I still don't see how it can save you bets.

You might be thinking of an old SpicyF post where he talks about CRing the river to save bets. The point there was that when you CR the river you're very rarely getting 3bet by something less than the nuts, so you save bets when he would have 3bet or capped the turn with the same superior holding, but now just calls the river.

[M2d]

if this it true:
[ QUOTE ]
he definately is capable of capping 99 or QT pf. thats why i thought to use the c'r to save bets concept. otherwise i think bet/call check call is best

[/ QUOTE ], isn't he also likely capable of betting air on the turn when you back down on the flop? I like the cr, but not as a defensive thing

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
Barron,

I've never heard of CRing the turn to save bets before and I still don't see how it can save you bets.

You might be thinking of an old SpicyF post where he talks about CRing the river to save bets. The point there was that when you CR the river you're very rarely getting 3bet by something less than the nuts, so you save bets when he would have 3bet or capped the turn with the same superior holding, but now just calls the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

also he might three bet the turn with a WORSE hand, but would not three bet the river with that hand

[phish]

Haven't read the replies, so pardon me if i'm being repetitive.

I know what u mean by c'raising to save bets, but I don't think it's applicable here. That's because if this opponent knows anything about you at all, he knows you're unlikely to have 3 bet the pre-flop multi-way w/ a KJ or J9. So if you're beat, you will almost certainly get 3 bet.
Much better to just bet out, this way you may get raised by KK or even AQ or even JJ trying for the free showdown.
You should then check the river and KK and AQ will likely bet it and you make the same three bets as you would've by checkraising the turn, with no risk of getting 3 bet on the turn. And you really can't fold that hand for a three-bet against a loose aggressive. (Even against someone more predictible, I'd hate to be put in a position where I'm tempted to fold)