do i fold QQ ?

middle of a $50 online MTT, average stack is about 3k, blinds are 50/100.
i'm in late position with QQ, and about 4k in chips.
short stack (1500) in early position raises to 300.
big stack (5000) in seat ahead of me raises to 700.
i call
every1 folds round to the short stack who goes all-in.
big stack goes all-in
??
aplunk

You raise it all in there and it goes a lot differently...i wouldnt just cold call two bets with queens. We need some reads too for this to be an answerable question.

The way you played it, I'd probably fold here and err on the side of caution.

I think you should raise all in before it comes back to the bs.
However, once it's got to this stage, you're only behind possible hands and there is nearly 4000 in the pot. I think that dictates a call.

First off I would slap myself with my keyboard for not pushing in the first place, then I would puke and finally shove my chips in the middle with the rest.

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every1 folds round to the short stack who goes all-in.
big stack goes all-in


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Ok, so you have raise, reraise, cold call, reraise, reraise. I'm not worried so much about the small stack as I am the big. The small stack may have a monster, but is probably pushing because of the chance to triple or quadruple. The big stack is obviously not too scared of anything.

I disagree with the preflop push. With the raise and reraise, you could be drawing to a maximum of 2 outs. This is a bit of dangerous spot. If you push, the only hands likely to call, are hands that have you beat and hands that have a reasonable chance of drawing out on you.

IMHO, it is probably 3-1 or 4-1 against your Queens being any good. Possibly they are, but in situations like these, there is very often AA or KK in the mix. Depends on the players. Tough spot. What happened? What did you do and what did the players show down?

Definitely should have pushed before. 1.55 to 1 odds on the rest of ur money impossible to pass up with QQ.. so you are in now too.

Your prev action is interpreted as weakness by the BB, who could have pushed with a middling hand in an effort to chase you out and get heads up with your dead money in there.

If he had AA or KK he would be more inclined to call the SB's all in, hoing for you to be priced in for the other 800, and then lured out of even more money.

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Your prev action is interpreted as weakness by the BB, who could have pushed with a middling hand in an effort to chase you out and get heads up with your dead money in there.

If he had AA or KK he would be more inclined to call the SB's all in, hoing for you to be priced in for the other 800, and then lured out of even more money.

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The problem with this logic is that most players are not on this high level of thought processes. They think "oh AA GET IT IN THERE"

I hate coinflips, and i think that a flip is best case scenario here. In a cash game I make this call all day long but tourney I want to protect my chips and put the money in when I KNOW MHIG. Having good pot equity vs 3 players means nothing if you don't get the chance to play again the times you miss since you can't rebuy. Just my take on the passing up EV thing.

Steve

[betgo]

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Definitely should have pushed before. 1.55 to 1 odds on the rest of ur money impossible to pass up with QQ.. so you are in now too.

Your prev action is interpreted as weakness by the BB, who could have pushed with a middling hand in an effort to chase you out and get heads up with your dead money in there.

If he had AA or KK he would be more inclined to call the SB's all in, hoing for you to be priced in for the other 800, and then lured out of even more money.

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I agree that the flat call might be interpreted as weakness. You have to call the push and should have pushed rather than called. The stack sizes and action do not make folding QQ reasonable.

I don't agree that villain can't have a big pair. If he flat calls, he might not get any more in after the flop, as a bet with a player allin is not going to be interpretted as a bluff. Also, the small initial reraise could be a big pair.

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Definitely should have pushed before. 1.55 to 1 odds on the rest of ur money impossible to pass up with QQ.. so you are in now too.

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1.55 to 1 is all well and good, if you are sure to not be left with only a 20-something to 1 shot to suck out.

These kinds of tourneys do not typically have a dearth of sophisticated players. To see a raise and 3 reraises, the chances are pretty good of being up against AA or KK. It all depends of the players. Are they complete maniacs who will go to the wall with 99 TT or JJ? The initial reraiser appears to have not even flinched at the initial raise, or the cold call of his initial raise, OR the SB push after a raise, reraise and cold call. All that evidence seems to point to a bigger pair.

Maybe it's just me. I've busted out with QQ in this kind of situation more times that I've taken down the pot. The times I've laid it down in these cases have always proven to be good laydowns.

[Lloyd]

The key to the action is the first time around. If you think the big stack is trying to steal or isolate, go ahead and raise. Otherwise, fold. Am I the only one here who thinks folding is a decent option versus the initial raise and re-raise?

[Sam T.]

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The key to the action is the first time around. If you think the big stack is trying to steal or isolate, go ahead and raise. Otherwise, fold. Am I the only one here who thinks folding is a decent option versus the initial raise and re-raise?

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Boy, that's a tough position. Shorty's raise from EP indicates at least a decent hand, and the smallish raise from the tall stack could be either "I'd like to isolate with my tens, but if you've got AA I'd like to be able to fold," or "I have AA and wouldn't mind more action than shorty can give me."

I would hate to fold QQ for t700 when I'm in position, but three-betting could hurt as well. I actually don't think a call is terrible. You have position: use it. Yes, you go broke against AA or KK if the flop is undercards, but the same thing will happen if you push. A call at least allows you a bit more time to see where you stand.

Thinking about it a bit more, never mind. You probably should have seen this coming. No way in the world Shorty is going to flat call for the majority of his stack, and a fold seems unlikely, so you probably have to assume a push is on it's way. A better play may have been to re-raise enough to put shorty in, but that's half your stack, so you have to push...ugh.

Shorty pushes, which doesn't tell us much (at least it doesn't tell me much. I think he's probably pushing AK, TT+ here), but it does re-open the betting. Tall stack's push now looks more like an isolation bet, but it also may be pent up excitement from his aces.

Hmmm. I don't know.

Sam

I folded. The small stack had KK, the big 99, nothing hit so i would have made aprofit by calling and winning the side pot. But i think it was a good flod !??

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I folded. The small stack had KK, the big 99, nothing hit so i would have made aprofit by calling and winning the side pot. But i think it was a good flod !??

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You would have had tons of funds after this call... the big stack was doing just what I imagined he would... contrary to the general opinion in reply to my post, I believe the 'call vs push' decision that the BB faced was a classic Strong is Weak/Weak is Strong tell that holds up MORESO for unsophisticated players... . it is instinct not sophistication that leads to this move. You are more likely to see a good player shoving with the aces here if/when he percieves you are thinking on that level and that may make you call..

If you fold QQ preflop in an SNG you are a bad player. Unless there are extreme circumstances (deep stacks and a solid read on a tight agressive player who has just made a third re-raise into you with large percentage of ur stack already in the pot) any doubt in your mind that leads you to play QQ weakly will be a LONG TERM MONEY LOSER because of the VAST number of times you are ahead.

You are only a dog to two hands, two rare hands. Even if they have those hands you STILL HAVE A 20% chance to hit your trips (seeing all 5 board cards)... EVERY other time your doubt will allow people scoping with a single overcard to see a flop and decide if they can break you.

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The key to the action is the first time around. If you think the big stack is trying to steal or isolate, go ahead and raise. Otherwise, fold. Am I the only one here who thinks folding is a decent option versus the initial raise and re-raise?

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Lloyd: When you say this, do you mean a fold at the first decision point, when it was 700 to go for the Hero?

I really feel that the move was misplayed initially, but you should have gotten it all in there anyways, so get it all in there now. The bit of extra information you have gained from the second pass around the table w/ the pooshes actually comes up in favor of the decision to get your cash in, imho. Odds are good.. I'm moving with 1.55:1 on QQ in the absence of an ICE COLD READ in 100% of cases.