Play from the blinds: T3o [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Scuba Chuck

12-17-2005, 04:17 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

UTG+1 (t645)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t2595)
CO (t805)
Button (t770)
Hero (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, 1 fold, MP2 calls t15, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t15, MP2 folds, Hero calls t15, BB folds.

Turn: (t90) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t95, Hero calls t95.

River: (t280) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t150, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t430

splashpot

12-17-2005, 04:20 AM

If you're gonna call the turn, you can't fold that river. Oh and I'd raise the flop a little just to see where you stand. If you don't improve or come up against a lot of resistance, it's easy to let go of.

Scuba Chuck

12-17-2005, 04:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're gonna call the turn, you can't fold that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

splashpot

12-17-2005, 04:24 AM

Because the ace doesn't change anything. If you're behind, you're behind to a better ten or a flush. I don't see the point in calling 95, then folding to 150 when nothing changed.

Scuba Chuck

12-17-2005, 04:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Because the ace doesn't change anything. If you're behind, you're behind to a better ten or a flush. I don't see the point in calling 95, then folding to 150 when nothing changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I folded?

splashpot

12-17-2005, 04:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because the ace doesn't change anything. If you're behind, you're behind to a better ten or a flush. I don't see the point in calling 95, then folding to 150 when nothing changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I folded?

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? I assume you folded because you thought you were behind to a better ten or a flush. But if that's the case, shouldn't you fold on the turn?

FWIW, I probably call the river bet.

Scuba Chuck

12-17-2005, 04:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Huh? I assume you folded because you thought you were behind to a better ten or a flush. But if that's the case, shouldn't you fold on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I called him on the turn, what do you think he's thinking?

splashpot

12-17-2005, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Huh? I assume you folded because you thought you were behind to a better ten or a flush. But if that's the case, shouldn't you fold on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I called him on the turn, what do you think he's thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]
What is this thread, only questions allowed? Lol. I assume this is a $33 since you've been playing those, in which case I'm guessing he could be thinking any number of things. Maybe he was bluffing the whole time and hit his ace on the river. I don't know. Or maybe he simply sees you lead check every street so far and figures that you missed your draw. I just think you played this hand way too weak.

curtains

12-17-2005, 04:35 AM

I wouldnt fold the river...Id call and see what he has.

handsome

12-17-2005, 04:35 AM

I agree with splashpot.

SuitedSixes

12-17-2005, 04:36 AM

I agree with Curtains.

Scuba Chuck

12-17-2005, 04:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt fold the river...Id call and see what he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I read his river bet as feeling strong.
 I [censored] hate blind play

curtains

12-17-2005, 04:38 AM

Pot odds too good for me....some of these guys don't even know what they have.

12-17-2005, 05:24 AM

psyduck

12-17-2005, 05:32 AM

wow

Melchiades

12-17-2005, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you folded because you thought you were behind to a better ten or a flush. But if that's the case, shouldn't you fold on the turn?

FWIW, I probably call the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

pergesu

12-17-2005, 05:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and I'd raise the flop a little just to see where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing you see is yourself OOP in a bigger pot than you want with a [censored] holding.

What's wrong with check-folding this flop?

12-17-2005, 05:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Huh? I assume you folded because you thought you were behind to a better ten or a flush. But if that's the case, shouldn't you fold on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I called him on the turn, what do you think he's thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]
That you're a donk? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh wait I get it now... he can't know you have trips so he must think you have a flush on the turn. But if he "knows" you have a flush *AND* he bets into you the river.... he must have AT, hence, a boat!!! And you spot this, and fold the river.

Wow, pretty amazing play.

tigerite

12-17-2005, 07:52 AM

I probably call the river here too. I might lead the turn as well.

Degen

12-17-2005, 08:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

UTG+1 (t645)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t2595)
CO (t805)
Button (t770)
Hero (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, 1 fold, MP2 calls t15, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t15, MP2 folds, Hero calls t15, BB folds.

Turn: (t90) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t95, Hero calls t95.

River: (t280) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t150, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t430

[/ QUOTE ]

PF you did fine

I give your flop decisions a B-
Turn decision D
River you get whatever is three places below an F

I like a raise on that flop, at the 33's. I put him on uderpair or A hi.

Turn I think you really should lead there to find out where you stand. Checking and calling is poor poor poor poker and I know that you know this but it wasn't mentioned anywhere in this tread. There are times where check/calling can help you. this turn is not one of them IMO.

Lead the turn or at least check raise. I want to get away from this on the turn. Once you call that turn you are calling that river, period.

tigerite

12-17-2005, 08:04 AM

Ahem I mentioned it in my post.. "I might lead the turn as well"

Degen

12-17-2005, 08:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahem I mentioned it in my post.. "I might lead the turn as well"

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, sorry i meant the general idea that checking and calling is a poor play. it has its places, but in general...it is suboptimal.

he check called flop, turn and the way it went he should have called the river

so thats check, call...check, call...check, call

doesn't that make anybody else wince?

tigerite

12-17-2005, 09:04 AM

FWIW, I agree. It seems a very passive line for a TAG to take. I might use it very very occasionally when I am trying to induce a bluff or when my hand has showdown value or something.. but here I just don't like it much.

adanthar

12-17-2005, 10:15 AM

Big deal, passive play is fine...

...just not on that turn, that's a turn bet. I can also see a river lead. Or a river call. Or something other than a fold, because an ace hit and many of his nice semibluffing hands have one in it. If you were gonna fold, fold the turn (I wouldn't.)

Snarf

12-17-2005, 12:25 PM

I usually lead the flop and then fold there to resistance...
but I can see the value of check/calling the flop....

but I don't understand check/calling the turn....whats the thinking?

tigerite

12-17-2005, 12:29 PM

I actually think check-call on the flop is almost mandatory because otherwise the reverse implied odds could get really messy, and you can just get raised off by a flush draw or whatever pretty easily. But when the board both pairs AND gives you trips on the turn, I would bet this turn a lot of the time. The rest of the time I would check/raise. Maybe 1% check/call to induce a bluff on the river from a particularly big LAG but pretty damn rarely. However that doesn't seem to have been the OP's plan here as he folded the river.. so I don't understand.

12-17-2005, 12:38 PM

I agree with tigerite's entire line.

Scuba Chuck

12-17-2005, 12:45 PM

It dawned on me last night, as I lie awake in bed, why it is that I check the river rather than bet. And why it is that I make the river call....

12-17-2005, 12:45 PM

Wait, I agree that a check on the flop is almost mandatory.

But what about an unplanned C/R? BB checked. UTG+1 tossed out a weird probe bet or draw/protect bet. MP2 folded. How about a raise to 70? BB likely folds or reveals his very strong hand. UTG+1 either correctly folds his draw, takes bad odds on a draw, or reveals strength. Situation somewhat clarified.

Thoughts?

tigerite

12-17-2005, 12:52 PM

A check-raise is possible on the flop, the problem is when called it leaves you with a bloated pot on the turn and the whole RIO comes into it again. Where possible you should try not to c-r the flop OOP if you can't get all-in by doing so, because the decisions on the turn can turn nasty.

12-17-2005, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A check-raise is possible on the flop, the problem is when called it leaves you with a bloated pot on the turn and the whole RIO comes into it again. Where possible you should try not to c-r the flop OOP if you can't get all-in by doing so, because the decisions on the turn can turn nasty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense, but what's RIO?

tigerite

12-17-2005, 06:52 PM

Reverse implied odds.. sorry I'd just mentioned them so often I figured I'd abbreviate it.