PDA

View Full Version : curtains hand #5001: A9o in sb


bjb23
12-17-2005, 02:06 AM
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t555)
Button (t2810)
Hero (t1553)
BB (t4562)
UTG (t520)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, HERO????

villian has been quite loose passive in early rounds. he got most of his stack by calling a minraise in lvl two with J9o and spiking top two pair. he likes to limp and call small raises with crap hands (JTo, A2o, etc).

fluorescenthippo
12-17-2005, 02:07 AM
raises to 275..

ilya
12-17-2005, 02:17 AM
I would complete and try to keep the pot small postflop, perhaps even try to go for a free showdown. I think folding is ok also. I don't like raising here cos a loose big stack is quite likely to call preflop and also to call loosely on the flop once there are chips in the pot, so I risk losing a big chunk of my chips &amp; FE or having to risk it all on a 2nd barrel when there are 2 short stacks around. On the other hand, unless I flop 2 pair, I'm not gonna be excited about playing a real big pot against the big stack with those 2 shorties hanging around. So when I hit I will often have to play cautiously &amp; will win just a little.

Roman
12-17-2005, 02:39 AM
completing and pushing are both ok.

curtains
12-17-2005, 02:42 AM
I havent run this one yet but I wouldnt be shocked if I made a mistake here. I felt bad about it while doing it.

ilya
12-17-2005, 02:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
pushing are both ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

ew gross.. I really don't like pushing. it's just +0.5 even if by some miracle of big-stack tightness he only calls with JJ+, AK. I like small edges as much as the next guy but I'm not even sure this is +$EV against his average range-range, and I'd feel pretty dumb blowing my 15xbb stack with those 2 5xbb shorties around.

Maulik
12-17-2005, 02:44 AM
I raise t250.

curtains
12-17-2005, 02:51 AM
I think either folding or calling and playing very passively postflop is best. I was frazzled somehow and moved allin but I don't like it at all.

ilya
12-17-2005, 02:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think either folding or calling and playing very passively postflop is best. I was frazzled somehow and moved allin but I don't like it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pssshh, come on curtains, I already explained it all! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Mr_J
12-17-2005, 02:54 AM
Raise and outplay him postflop. You're stack is comfortable enough to risk some chips for a big payoff.

I don't like limping. Raising, he may fold, it causes him to make a mistake if he calls, it might also get him more attatched to the pot which leads to further errors.

Pushing is terrible.

curtains
12-17-2005, 02:55 AM
cmon guys before you say PUSHING IS TERRIBLE at least do the math. Its unlikely to be less than break even. Its not my preferred play, but terrible is an absurd comment. Most sane calling standards make pushing slightly +EV or at least about break even if they start calling you with stuff like 33+44

Roman
12-17-2005, 03:10 AM
I didnt notice the two shorties, but pushing is most def not terrible... The play I hate most is raising a standard amount, you dont wanna play a pot against him OOP, and he may think KJ is good enough for a push here.

bluefeet
12-17-2005, 03:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I would complete and try to keep the pot small postflop, perhaps even try to go for a free showdown. I think folding is ok also. I don't like raising here cos a loose big stack is quite likely to call preflop and also to call loosely on the flop once there are chips in the pot, so I risk losing a big chunk of my chips &amp; FE or having to risk it all on a 2nd barrel when there are 2 short stacks around. On the other hand, unless I flop 2 pair, I'm not gonna be excited about playing a real big pot against the big stack with those 2 shorties hanging around. So when I hit I will often have to play cautiously &amp; will win just a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this one FWIW

Mr_J
12-17-2005, 03:22 AM
I'm not saying pushing is -ev, I'm just strongly in favour of raising here. If you have to get away from the pot you still have a good stack to work with, but the right flop sees you gain quite a few chips and maybe even double up. This then allows you to get into more postflop situations with bigstack, to give you a better chance to build an even larger stack and dominate the table.

This is all in my own opinion of course, so when I say pushing is terrible, I just mean I think that it is far from the best option.

curtains
12-17-2005, 03:35 AM
To be honest I think raising something like 250-300 is the worst possible option by a longshot.

Roman
12-17-2005, 03:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest I think raising something like 250-300 is the worst possible option by a longshot.

[/ QUOTE ]
yup for sure

Mr_J
12-17-2005, 03:47 AM
Fair enough, but could you both explain your reasoning, and what you think the best option would be?

I'd guess you don't want to ruin that nice stack you have, and that we might have to abandon alot of pots since we have little FE on the flop??

I also don't like bigstack having so many chips in my sb since it takes alot of FE from future steals (unless he's passive to pushes).

curtains
12-17-2005, 03:59 AM
I just dont want to create a big pot OOP against the biggest stack, when there are 2 shorties and Im in great position to make it ITM.

When I said it was the worst play by "far" I was kind of overdramatizing a bit.

Scuba Chuck
12-17-2005, 04:23 AM
Without reading all the responses, I complete, and hope to see a flop. I don't want to invest too many chips at this point. If he raises, min-raises, whatever, I'm out. I've already invested too much.

HonestIago15
12-17-2005, 05:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I didnt notice the two shorties, but pushing is most def not terrible... The play I hate most is raising a standard amount, you dont wanna play a pot against him OOP, and he may think KJ is good enough for a push here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't? I would think that as big stack with a small raise pushing with KJ would be ideal. How often would you expect your push to be called in that situation? You're also quite comfortable if you lose the hand. I don't see the downside.

12-17-2005, 11:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think either folding or calling and playing very passively postflop is best. I was frazzled somehow and moved allin but I don't like it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't completing just an invitation for the big stack in the BB to come over the top?

Freudian
12-17-2005, 11:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think either folding or calling and playing very passively postflop is best. I was frazzled somehow and moved allin but I don't like it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't completing just an invitation for the big stack in the BB to come over the top?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but so is a raise to 275-300 (especially with the stacks of hero/villain). And if you just complete you can get away from the hand easy with your stack in good shape.

Another added bonus of completing is that it might look odd coming from a solid player and thus make your opponent much more passive.

12-17-2005, 12:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think either folding or calling and playing very passively postflop is best. I was frazzled somehow and moved allin but I don't like it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't completing just an invitation for the big stack in the BB to come over the top?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but so is a raise to 275-300 (especially with the stacks of hero/villain). And if you just complete you can get away from the hand easy with your stack in good shape.

Another added bonus of completing is that it might look odd coming from a solid player and thus make your opponent much more passive.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he does come over the top, don't you have to have an incredibly good hand to call? Making BB's pushing range very wide?

Maybe there's some secondary or tertiary thinking here: SB knows BB will push with a wide range over a call, so SB must have a pretty good hand to risk the call, so BB won't push as often, so SB can complete more often, etc. I don't know how deep the thinking goes.

With the good chance of the BB coming over the top and being OOP after the flop (if we see a flop), it just seems like completing is donating some chips to the big stack a huge percentage of the time.

I don't pretend to be a $215 player, so I realize this thinking could be low buy-in thinking. My reason for posting is really to find out how the thinking changes as the buy-in increases rather than to give my opinion on how things should be done in a $215.

12-17-2005, 01:01 PM
I like completing here because I hate all the other options.

Folding- this is obviously incorrect because we've got a really good hand HU.
Raising- postflop's really hard. I get uncomfortable making this play against a normal villain; against a loose/passive villain, we lose a lot of our preflop FE and much more frequently have to play a whiffed flop OOP.
Pushing- not sure what SnGPT says, but I imagine this can't be that great.

sng-sam
12-17-2005, 01:18 PM
I just don't like the risk reward ratio here.

1. 2 shorties
2. 15 bb stack
3. OOP to big stack
4. only 100 if I take it down

I complete and check fold the flop unless I hit big

Straight Flushes,

SAM

sofere
12-17-2005, 02:14 PM
What do you consider big?

Nick M
12-18-2005, 02:18 AM
I push this with 5 people left. On the bubble, and someone has a 500 stack, I'll limp or fold. But both shorts need to be eliminated for me to make cash, I don't usually take that chance. So I'll still try and steal here. Odds are that either one, MP or UTG, will double up before the money....

12-18-2005, 06:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
calling and playing very passively postflop

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this. Folding is super weak.

curtains
12-18-2005, 06:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling and playing very passively postflop

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this. Folding is super weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think folding is probably fine.

tigerite
12-18-2005, 06:28 AM
So do I, it's a toss up between folding and completing for me. I'm glad this thread came about though as it was probably a leak in my game too. Of course the two times I tried it yesterday in very similar situations I got raised by the BB, but oh well /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Newt_Buggs
12-18-2005, 12:39 PM
I don't see how folding can be correct against a villain who is described as:
[ QUOTE ]
quite loose passive in early rounds. he got most of his stack by calling a minraise in lvl two with J9o and spiking top two pair. he likes to limp and call small raises with crap hands (JTo, A2o, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no way that I cannot play this hand profitably by completing and playing a flop against such a player. If he isn't going to raise me off of the hand then I can turn the hand into a profit.

Against a decent player who would be smart enough to raise me off of my hand I would simply move all in. If he is intelligent enough to move all in against me it is also likely that he is able to recognize that calling my push with marginal hands such as 66 and AT would be incorrect.

curtains
12-18-2005, 04:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how folding can be correct against a villain who is described as:
[ QUOTE ]
quite loose passive in early rounds. he got most of his stack by calling a minraise in lvl two with J9o and spiking top two pair. he likes to limp and call small raises with crap hands (JTo, A2o, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no way that I cannot play this hand profitably by completing and playing a flop against such a player. If he isn't going to raise me off of the hand then I can turn the hand into a profit.

Against a decent player who would be smart enough to raise me off of my hand I would simply move all in. If he is intelligent enough to move all in against me it is also likely that he is able to recognize that calling my push with marginal hands such as 66 and AT would be incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon man you arent really playing like this. I mean you realize that if they are folding 66 and AT, its +EV to push any 2....its hardly more +EV to push with J9 (+.3%,+$5.30) OR 97o (+$.2%/+$3.50) than it is to push with A9o (+.3%/$6.30) and I don't even believe for a fraction of a second that you would push with hands that weak for 15x BB. Again, if you are going to push with A9o because your opponent is going to fold stuff like 66 and ATo (which I would never assume in a million years), then its nearly just as much +EV to push with 97o and even very slightly +EV to push 54o (+.1%), and I don't think I'll live to see the day that you push those hands also. Yet its inconsistant to say that you'd push A9o against such players and then not push a hand like J9o and 97o which are still +EV against this range. I simply refuse to give anyone that tight a calling range unless they are related to me or I know them exceptionally well.

I'm not going to play that game on the bubble and assume my big stacked opponent is tight enough to make pushing with nearly any 2 while having 15x the BB and two shorties around the correct play. I think calling was probably the best play against this guy...I wouldnt have been totally shocked if they called an allin with A6s or KJs or something like that.

adanthar
12-18-2005, 04:27 PM
Note to all: if you say stuff like 'isn't it an invitation for the big stack to raise?', you have to take the read into account. Someone who calls raises with A2o and plays super passively PF is not suddenly going to start bullying with nothing, at least not because he read about it on 2+2.

I complete and play poker, which probably involves check/folding a lot but oh well.

curtains
12-18-2005, 06:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Note to all: if you say stuff like 'isn't it an invitation for the big stack to raise?', you have to take the read into account. Someone who calls raises with A2o and plays super passively PF is not suddenly going to start bullying with nothing, at least not because he read about it on 2+2.

I complete and play poker, which probably involves check/folding a lot but oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that limping is probably the best play btw. I just don't think folding is terrible.

Mr_J
12-18-2005, 06:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
When I said it was the worst play by "far" I was kind of overdramatizing a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

So was I (when I meanting pushing/folding). A 10+ tabling 22-55er would hardly ever works on his game vs a strong $215er, course there will be differing opinions /images/graemlins/wink.gif At least I'm starting to make an effort these days though lol.