Foxwoods 5/10: Two unusual looking folds.

[JTG51]

I'm always intersted in 2+2 thoughts when I make a play that gets a good players attention at the table. It happened twice on Friday.

Hand 1:

I'm in the CO with KsQd. Two fishy loose players limp, I raise. SB folds, BB calls. BB is a fairly typical low limit player. A little too loose, a little too passive, a little too predictable.

Flop: 8s 5h 5d

It's checked to me, I check.

Turn: [8s 5h 5d] Qc

BB bets, the other two fold, I raise. He 3-bets, I fold. Does anyone play it differently?

Hand 2:

A good, solid player who respects my play raises UTG. I 3-bet UTG+1 with AdKd. We get a cold caller in MP and in LP. BB also calls. UTG now caps and everyone calls.

Flop: 9h 9s 8c

BB checks, UTG bets, I fold. UTG, who's play I respect, seemed very surprised.

[asdf1234]

First hand looks pretty straightforward, either he caught a smaller queen or he was slowplaying (or hoping to checkraise) a 5 (or better). The three bet makes this crystal clear. Pretty easy fold, especially since you don't have anywhere near the odds to draw at your 2 outer.

I don't know what else you can do with the second hand. It's almost certain that he has an overpair since you three bet him and he capped then comes out betting especially with a flop like this. The problem with drawing at this is you don't know what card you want or if you're even drawing live to something other than perfect perfect. You've also got the cold callers to worry about, one of them could have a nine. Probably better to save your money on this one, good muck.

[J.R.]

I play Hand #1 the same way when I am in "the zone", when not, I miss the easy laydown.

Hand #2 is less obvious, perhaps, because of the pot size, but the right play. At best you have 6 outs against QQ, and since he respects your play, he is unlikely to have AQs. Is there a chance you have the same hand here? If not, good fold, if so I would consider raising. But given your description I think you get shown AA or KK the vast majority of the time here. Further you have nothing and two cards on the flop that could connect with those coldcallers behind you.

[RockLobster]

Hey JTG--

Hand 1
I usually limp here, is raising the default play? As far as the fold goes, I like it. I think it's a very disciplined play that I'm proud of when I can actually do it, not just know that it's the right thing to do. Nicely done.

Hand 2
I think that's a routine fold, as you're unlikley to steal this pot, and you probably won't win at showdown.

[lil']

Hand 1 - I often take a shot at this on the flop, as these players have an irrational fear of trips. The way it went down, you have to fold when you did.

Hand 2 - Easy fold. That flop missed you in about 15 different ways. This is a good example of getting the money in preflop with a premium hand in a loose game, but not flailing away hoplessly with it when you miss.

[JTG51]

Hand 1
I usually limp here, is raising the default play?

Yes, raising KQ from LP after one or two loose limpers is routine for me. KQ figures to dominate a huge number of their limping hands.

[CrackerZack]

Hand 1, I like the fold but don't think I make it.

Hand 2, against 5 players with no draws and it was capped, this fold seems routine. You could be nearly drawing dead to AA or could have tainted outs also and have cold callers to act behind you.

[RockLobster]

Yes, raising KQ from LP after one or two loose limpers is routine for me. KQ figures to dominate a huge number of their limping hands.

Understood. I'll often raise if I think I can isolate 1 limper, but will usually call otherwise. I'll have to reevaluate that play.

Thanks--

[onegymrat]

There are both clear folds to me. It seems that the difference between average players and good players is that good players know when to lay it down. Of course, I am still working very hard at that! So how did it turn out?

[JTG51]

There are both clear folds to me.

I thought so too. Everyone seems to think the flop fold in the second hand was easy. I'm wondering if anyone can make a good argument for continuing. I wouldn't even be asking if UTG wasn't so surprised by my fold.

So how did it turn out?

Another skill that a good player has is patience. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I'll post the results in a little while.

[Munga30]

A good, solid player who respects my play raises UTG. I 3-bet UTG+1 with AdKd. We get a cold caller in MP and in LP. BB also calls. UTG now caps and everyone calls. Flop: 9h 9s 8c. BB checks, UTG bets, I fold. UTG, who's play I respect, seemed very surprised.

Is it possible that the good solid player can have KK? It seems so to me. What about AKs? QQ?

With 21 bets in the pot, I say you should call and try to spike an A. If it comes back to you for 2 cold you have an easy fold.

EDIT: And what about raising? What could the cold callers have that possibly hit this flop? 99 and 88 are about it, IMO, and how likely are those? Does he respect your play enough to smooth call and try to get in a turn check raise (i.e. free card for you)? Or would you then be looking at another 1.5 bb to see the river? I not saying this is best, but reading your reasoning would be helpful.

[JTG51]

Hand 1:

I didn't get to see BBs hand.

Hand 2:

One limper and the BB called UTGs flop bet. The turn was another 9, making the board 9 9 8 9. BB bet, UTG called, limper folded. River was another 8 for a final board of 9 9 9 8 8. It got checked around. BB showed J8, UTG had AKs for a chop.

Thanks for the comments.

[JTG51]

I not saying this is best, but reading your reasoning would be helpful.

My reasoning was really pretty simple. I know he knows I'm not fooling around with my 3-bet. He's got to put me on a pretty narrow range of hands. Probably AA-JJ, maybe TT, and AK. When he capped, I thought he had to have a big pair, and I wasn't even sure he'd cap with QQ. I figured I was going to be drawing almost dead half of the time and drawing to 3 outs the other half of the time. Add in the small chance that one of the cold callers has a real hand, and I could be in real trouble.