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07-11-2002, 08:16 PM
I've been a Manager in the customer service industry for 23 years. Having dealt with customers, Hourly employees, Lower and mid-level managers and support staff, I have heard every lie and excuse in the book. I know when I'm being told half-truths, lies and full truths. I know when someone has ulterior motives, and I know when someone is being straight up.

As it relates to Poker, I also know that my biggest strength is my ability to read players.

So the question becomes, is my ability to read players a nurtured and developed instinct, and does your career have a direct correlation to your play? The follow up question would be, how can one further develop these abilities?

07-11-2002, 08:27 PM
I think you have to have a natural inclination to pay attention to people to read them.


If watching your opponents is a bigger drag than a boring movie, you can't do it.


If your mind isn't curious, and engaged, I don't think you can force it to care.


eLROY

07-11-2002, 09:11 PM
Excellent point.


I work as a collection manager.My company purchases bad debt and then attempts to collect on it. We buy charged off credit card accounts for pennies on the dollars. Most of the accounts have no chance of getting collected however its a numbers game. We usually need to go through 1000 accounts to collect on 10.


Most of my employees get paid strictly commission. They must work smart as well as hard.My company must invest wisely on the accounts that could show a profit. Close (fold) the ones that will not. How much money we spend on an account also comes into effect. We will spend more resources up front to collect on a larger dollar account, than we would a small dollar account.


I think a correlation exists between a marginal hand and the time and effort spent working on an account that will show a profit

over time.


However in my industry, the more accounts that get worked the more money we make. When an account has no assets, we need to close the account, similiar to folding an account. When we threaten that an account will go to suit, its almost like a bluff.


I dont know if that answers the question clearly, however I do agree.


Best Wishes


MK

07-12-2002, 12:04 AM
The ability to read players is critically important, and your experience has certainly enhanced any natural talent you have.

People have argued for millenia about whether this talent is primarily natural or learned. It's called "The nature-nurture controversy," and there will never be a definitive answer. Some people just have an inexplicable gift for reading people. They look at someone and say, "He's bluffing" or "He's got a great hand." If asked, "How do you know?", they say, "It's obvious" (which means they know without knowing how they know).

I wish I had that gift, but I don't. I have to work hard, slowly building up a data base on someone, seeing how he acts at different times, then relating different actions to different types of hands. Over time I can become fairly confident in my ability to read some players (but certainly not all of them).

If you don't great "feel" for players, the best thing to do is to work on observing people, especially when you're not involved in hands. The basic observational techniques are covered in my book. John Feeney's book covers more advanced techniques.

Alan Schoonmaker

07-12-2002, 12:36 AM
As stated, your argument boils down to the idea that one has no control over what they pay attention to.


Perhaps you mean that some people, given their natural inclination toward being bored by paying attention to people and attempting to read them, will most likely continue to be bored and it will be a hard task to conjure the requisite attention it will take to develop this skill. I can agree with that proposition - I know a number of people who would have a rough time staying focused.


However, that's a very different thing than possibility/impossibility. Even people to who are bored and will have a tough time practicing, the ability to develop skill in this area is miles and miles from impossible.


Think of it like meditation, by which I mean a disciplined attentional practice. Some people would be naturally more inclined to have difficulty developing the practice, but it's a skill just like learning the piano, or how to bowl. Reading people at the poker table is a skill, that can be developed, by all but the developmentally disabled.

07-12-2002, 12:42 AM
You're having lunch with your friend who for the last 20 minutes has been talking to you about his wife. Suddenly, you lean forward and ask your friend what his feelings are towards his wife at this point in time. Your friend immediately stiffens his body, cuts his breathing to where it has become shallow and irregular, he thrusts his left hand with his index finger extended, drops his right hand into his lap with his palm turned upward, and in a harsh and shrill tone of voice, rapidly says, "I do everything I can to help her; I love her so very much!".


Noo Yawk, I have a question for you. Being the experienced people reader that you are, can you tell me intuitively what's wrong with the above picture? Thanks.

07-12-2002, 03:18 AM
trying to convince himself,by rationalizing,that he is doing everything he can for his wife. However,he knows that he is NOT really doing everything he can do for her.

This conclusion is based upon the defensive tone in his voice and from the manner in which he phrases his words.


Happy pokering,

Sitting Bull

07-12-2002, 05:50 AM
I personally think he's having a heart attack...but that's me !

07-12-2002, 06:32 AM
Actually, it was your book that led me to start thinking about how my reading skills were developed. My learning skills came from my study of music, and aggression came from playing baseball. It's fascinating to me how past experiences develope skills in other areas.

07-12-2002, 06:37 AM
From the context of the written word, it sounds like he doesn't really belive himself that he does everything he can. Just like an employee that underachieves, but tries to convince himself and anyone in earshot that he's the hardest worker in the company.

07-12-2002, 09:10 AM
One big difference between Paradise heads-up and Mirage 20-40, is that in heads-up, the time you spend is your own. In a casino ring game, the time you allocate to a decision comes out of other people's pockets.


eLROY

07-12-2002, 11:28 AM
The reason you and Sitting Bull have arrived to your conclusions is because you have perceived and recognized incongruencies in your "friend's" paramessages.


Let me explain these terms. Everytime we communicate, we are always expressing ourselves simultaneously through several output channels, called paramessages. In the case of our "friend", here specifically are the paramessages (PM) by which he consciously and unconsciously communicated how he felt about his wife at the point in time you asked him about it:


PM1. Body stiff


PM2. Breathing shallow and irregular


PM3. Left hand thrust forward with extended index finger.


PM4. Right hand palm open and turned up in lap.


PM5. Rapid rate of speech


PM6. The words: I do everything I can to help her; I love her so very much!


Congruency is when the person communicating has aligned all of his output channels/paramessages so that each of them is conveying, representing, and carrying the same or a compatible message. When all of the person's paramessages (body posture, voice tempo, words, movements) are representing the same compatible message, you can say that that person is being congruent.


Incronguency is when the person communicating is presenting a set of messages carried by his output channels which do not match and that are incompatible. When this happens this person, like our "friend", can be said to be incongruent. We usually describe incongruence with words and phrases like "he's confused", "he doesn't really know what he wants", "he is incosistent", "he is untrustworthy", "he is indecisive".


Notice, Noo Yawk, that only PM6 may be communicated consciously. While PM's 1 thru 5 may be largely unconscious. This is true for most communications both verbal and non-verbal including the acts of betting, calling, folding, raising, looking at the flop as the dealer spreads it, peeking at one's hole cards, reacting to a bad beat, etc. At the poker table we cannot NOT communicate. Neither can our opponents.


Getting back to the subject of paramessage incongruencies, have you ever experienced a time when you had a gut feeling that you just couldn't trust a particular person (perhaps a salesman), yet couldn't explain why you felt so? Have you ever experienced a time when you just knew the other guy was bluffing, yet you just could not explain precisely why you knew? Have you ever experienced a time when something just smelled very "fishy" to you? Have you ever experience a time when something just "didn't feel right", even though you might not have known why at that moment? Do you know people who just have a knack for knowing that someone cannot be trusted, but not know precisely why they know? In all of these cases, you were able to do so because you perceived incongruencies in the other person's paramessages. The fact is, we cannot communicate thru only one channel. We are always communicating thru two or more channels. And we are always perceiving multiple simultaneous messages from others. There is nothing magical about perceiving incongruencies and congruencies. We are always perceiving these messages all the time.


Can we enhance our own "lie/bluff detecting skills"? The answer is a congruent YES! The first step is simply to KNOW that we all indeed always communicate thru multiple channels, most of it unconsiously. The second step is simply to be more curious about these things as we actively and passively observe and interact with others. And thirdly, we can realize that we have always had these skills since childhood and it's time that we give ourselves the gift of trusting our instincts and intuitions as much as me trust our "analytical skills".

07-12-2002, 12:24 PM
I think the reason why many "non-poker" skills are so readily transferable to poker is because poker is a game of multiple skills. It requires people skills, analytical skills, strategic skills, hustling skills, persuasion skills, emotional state management skills, mathematical skills, etc.


I also believe that our initial strenghts as players are based on the skills that we have developed elsewhere (career, hobby) in our lives. The service industry professional (doctor, mechanic, housewife/mother, store manager) might have as his/her initial strength his skills of empathy. The games player (chess player, backgammon player, gin player, or military commander for that matter) might have as his intital strength the skill of strategic thinking. The people person (salesman, trial lawyer) might have his persuasion skill as the basis of his initial strength in poker.


It is important that we build on the strengths that we initially bring to the game as a result of our non-poker backgrounds. And it is equally important that we also learn to value the habit and attitude of developing new skills in addition to what we already bring in. Someone like Chris Ferguson may have been initially attracted to the game because of it's statistical/mathematical elements but I doubt he just stuck with those. From watching him play, it appears he has developed great empathic skills as well.


Of course, there are some very poker specific skills as well, most of which can be found in David Sklansky's Theory of Poker.


The reason poker has become as popular as it is is because the multiple skills that can be found in it tends to attract people who possess all sorts of skills. Of course, the gambling and risk-taking aspects play a major role too.

07-12-2002, 03:37 PM
What is the significance of the right hand palm open and turned up in lap?

07-12-2002, 03:42 PM

07-12-2002, 03:48 PM
turned up,the "friend"'s message would tend to be more believable. An up-turned palm indicates a more unbelievable message.

Sitting Bull

07-12-2002, 04:06 PM
Did you copy this out of a book. /images/smile.gif

07-12-2002, 04:18 PM
The definitions of "Conguency", "Incongruency", and "Paramessages" I paraphrased, to the best of my memory, from a mini-glossary from a psychology book called The Structure of Magic part II by John Grinder and Richard Bandler. I'm sure I got the essence of their definitions.

07-12-2002, 04:26 PM
The right hand is incongruent with the left in that it is a pleading motion while the left is a making a strong point motion.

07-12-2002, 10:58 PM
That's some real interesting stuff. Would you be able to start a few posts, using these ideas in real hand play. Something like a hand you played with these types of reads. I would love to try myself, but I am the guy that has no idea why I know, I just know I Know!! I'm looking forward to more of your posts. Thanks for the insight.

11-29-2002, 01:36 PM
There are many non-poker talents that can equate into poker success. And it's important that you know what they are. Having been in a job that has high customer contact, I find that I can read people well too. But I'm very poor at math and logic. I have to work on these.

RollaJ
12-03-2002, 03:10 PM
Used Car Dealer
Ice salesman in Antarctica
Defense Attorney
Dictator of said country
and of course profesional poker player

2ndGoat
12-04-2002, 04:15 PM
So far everyone has posted careers that concentrate on the "people" side. I don't think a mathematician is in too shabby of a spot either. I'd say the same of engineers, computer scientists, physicists, etc.

It was the numbers behind the game that got me here... further proof of someone's post above that the different parts of poker attract all kinds of different people for different reasons.

2ndGoat

Dentist
12-06-2002, 12:16 PM
Sometimes, after the flop I check to the pre-flop raiser and in an effort to get a FREE card, I simply waive my hand and say: "These are not the cards you're looking for."

This works 100% of the time if you're a Jedi Knight.

AlanBostick
12-06-2002, 02:33 PM
Being the experienced people reader that you are, can you tell me intuitively what's wrong with the above picture?

There's nothing wrong with this picture. There is lots that is interesting about this picture. Most obviously interesting are the substantial contradictions between the friend's words, his tone of voice, and his body language. He's saying at least five things: I love my wife; I am very angry with my wife; I do too much for her; I can't do enough for her; and, I'm very unhappy about my own feelings towards her.

That's what's interesting, that he's saying so much in so many ways. There's nothing wrong with this picture, although there may be plenty wrong with the story behind it.

Jedi Poker
12-07-2002, 01:35 AM
"Interesting" is indeed a very useful and appropriate description of the communication that I have described. The term "wrong" was very presupposing and judging. Thanks for bringing up an alternative word choice.

Having the awareness that people are always simultaneously communicating thru multiple channels and having the sensory acuity to notice simultaneous and sequential incongruencies/contradictions among these channels is the key to becoming intuitive and emphatic towards the "stories behind" people's behaviors, verbalizations and actions, including the actions/communications of checking, betting, folding, raising, and calling.