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maurile
12-16-2005, 05:59 PM
An Atheist Manifesto (http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/)
by Sam Harris

As you'd expect from a manifesto, it's kind of long. I'll cull a few excerpts that might be worthy of discussion.

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It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist.

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As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different.

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It is perfectly absurd for religious moderates to suggest that a rational human being can believe in God simply because this belief makes him happy, relieves his fear of death or gives his life meaning. The absurdity becomes obvious the moment we swap the notion of God for some other consoling proposition: Imagine, for instance, that a man wants to believe that there is a diamond buried somewhere in his yard that is the size of a refrigerator. No doubt it would feel uncommonly good to believe this. Just imagine what would happen if he then followed the example of religious moderates and maintained this belief along pragmatic lines: When asked why he thinks that there is a diamond in his yard that is thousands of times larger than any yet discovered, he says things like, “This belief gives my life meaning,” or “My family and I enjoy digging for it on Sundays,” or “I wouldn’t want to live in a universe where there wasn’t a diamond buried in my backyard that is the size of a refrigerator.” Clearly these responses are inadequate. But they are worse than that. They are the responses of a madman or an idiot.

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The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious.

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Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities—Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.—and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews versus Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians versus Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants versus Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims versus Hindus), Sudan (Muslims versus Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims versus Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims versus Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists versus Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims versus Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite versus Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians versus Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis versus Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. In these places religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in the last 10 years.

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Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: One’s convictions should be proportional to one’s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isn’t—indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable—is both an intellectual and a moral failing.

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IronUnkind
12-16-2005, 10:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist.

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This is a stupid point. The existence of the term is a necessity in light of the ubiquity of theistic beliefs.

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As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different.

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This might be a good argument if the biblical god was, in fact, "no different."

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The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious.

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Religion in the West, it should be noted, has had a pretty positive impact on literacy. I have not seen any statistics that show a credible relationship between long life expectancy and atheism. And how do we rank a nation on "human development" anyway? Strikes me as a nebulous category. Oh yeah, and correlation does not prove causation. What does any of this have to do with the existence of a god? Not much, unless he is trying to debunk Kant's moral argument, in which case, the author brought the weak sauce.

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Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities—Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.—and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews versus Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians versus Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants versus Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims versus Hindus), Sudan (Muslims versus Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims versus Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims versus Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists versus Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims versus Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite versus Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians versus Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis versus Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. In these places religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in the last 10 years.

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Smoking kills, therefore Phillip Morris doesn't exist.

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Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: One’s convictions should be proportional to one’s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isn’t—indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable—is both an intellectual and a moral failing.

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So there might be a god?

BluffTHIS!
12-16-2005, 10:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: One’s convictions should be proportional to one’s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isn’t—indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable—is both an intellectual and a moral failing.

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This turns on how one defines "God". Stephen Hawking, though not believing in a personal god, nonetheless uses that word for the uncreated cause of the quantum singularity that was the origin of the big bang.

hmkpoker
12-17-2005, 12:08 AM
The guy isn't really giving a logical argument any more than Karl Marx was when he compiled the steaming load of horseshit from which this Atheist Manifesto derives its name. It's propaganda trying to unite atheists to further their cause.

IronUnkind
12-17-2005, 12:50 AM
That's a bit harsh. I just think the guy makes some lame arguments. But I doubt that he's foaming at the mouth. That said, the site generally seemed alarmist; people throw out the word 'theocracy' too quickly.

12-17-2005, 12:28 PM
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That's a bit harsh. I just think the guy makes some lame arguments. But I doubt that he's foaming at the mouth. That said, the site generally seemed alarmist; people throw out the word 'theocracy' too quickly.

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It depends a lot where you're from. In the South, it's all too real to see religion play a huge role in politics. It's a de facto theocracy of sorts.

12-17-2005, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: One’s convictions should be proportional to one’s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isn’t—indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable—is both an intellectual and a moral failing.

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I like the idea... but I would call that 'skepticism' moreso than 'atheism'. After all, this intellectual honesty need not be only in context of god-belief, but any and all belief. Is there a "skeptics manifesto" somewhere?

imported_luckyme
12-17-2005, 12:46 PM
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What does any of this have to do with the existence of a god?

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Atheism or theism aren't about the existence of god, they're are about the belief in the existence of god. The lower crime, better health, etc correlation with atheistic countries may well be a spin off of more realistic thinking in dealing with social issues and less reliance on magical beliefs to 'inform my politics'.
Perhaps.

ctj
12-17-2005, 12:54 PM
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I like the idea... but I would call that 'skepticism' moreso than 'atheism'. After all, this intellectual honesty need not be only in context of god-belief, but any and all belief. Is there a "skeptics manifesto" somewhere?

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http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/manifesto.html

Regards,

C.T.Jackson

peritonlogon
12-17-2005, 03:21 PM
or try David Hume's discourse on human understanding

peritonlogon
12-17-2005, 03:48 PM
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The guy isn't really giving a logical argument.

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First of all the purpose is not to give a logical argument in support of Atheism.... that would be pointless. In order to put forth a 'logical argument' argainst god,\ assumes that the writer of the manifesto is ignorant this fact; The fact that the debate over whether there can be a logical argument for god (which is the same as a logical argument for not god) has long since been put to rest (with a resounding no, you can't make a logical argument for or against god). Anyone who you come accros that makes a logical argumet for or against god is either, childish, deceptive, or willfully ignorant.

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It's propagana trying to unite atheists to further their cause.

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Part of me says.... yeah that's true...however, this statement, in context (out of which I took it) implies that, because of this it is therefore wrong, irrelevant, or in some other way invalid.

Well, it is obviously, or perhaps, manifestly, persuasive speach. But if you are claiming that because it is persuasive speach it is invalid and ought to be dismissed, well, be prepared to start dismissing most everything you come into contact with. Starting with this steaming load of propoganda horseshit.


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The guy isn't really giving a logical argument any more than Karl Marx was when he compiled the steaming load of horseshit from which this Atheist Manifesto derives its name.

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