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View Full Version : Limping AA UTG, L1


IdiotVig
12-16-2005, 05:34 PM
Assume, for the sake of argument, you're playing against a typical 55 lineup. How often do you limp AA UTG, with the blinds at 10/15?

And regardless of your answer, how necessary is a move like this at the 55s (Rephrased: if you were to never do this, how much equity would you be sacrificing? forget about the infrequency of the problem, for argument's sake)?

tigerite
12-16-2005, 05:35 PM
Never.

Next?

cleinen
12-16-2005, 05:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Never

[/ QUOTE ]

bawcerelli
12-16-2005, 06:06 PM
in the early part of a 27, i limp this alot because there's always some donk who will raise with trash. of course i reraise. when there are fewer donks left, i raise it.

12-16-2005, 06:13 PM
What do you gain by limp re-raising that you don't by just raising

Kurn, son of Mogh
12-16-2005, 06:14 PM
0.1% (never say never /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

I'd prefer to save the limp-reraise or minraise-reraise/call the all-in with AA for the bubble, and even then only when I think the table situation is near-perfect.

Femto
12-16-2005, 06:15 PM
I see nothing wrong with it. You raise 45-55 UTG and you will probably get 2-3 callers. They hit their K/Q/J and you might get a little action. They hit better and you are going to find yourself in a difficult situation with stacks so deep. On the other hand if you limp it once in awhile, it is very likely the action will come back to you after a raise and you can 1) get more chips in preflop and 2) cut down on the number of your opponents.

L2+ I'd agree that it's -EV to limp AA UTG. But I'm fairly confident that it's not a bad move to use once in awhile at level 1--you'd be amazed at how many dorks will get all in with their AK/AQ when you reraise.

sofere
12-16-2005, 06:15 PM
Maybe after I smoked a kilo of crack followed by a bottle of wild turkey. And even then, only when someone has a gun to my head.

TheNoodleMan
12-16-2005, 06:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What do you gain by limp re-raising that you don't by just raising

[/ QUOTE ]
You can sometimes clear out some small pairs. If you raise to t60, there is a good chance that you'll get called by a mid pair, which will then give the implied odds for other small pairs to call.

If you limp and the same player that would have called with 88 now pops it to 60 and gets 2 callers behind him, now you have a chance to force some of them out out of the hand with a substantial re-rasie. The last thing you want is to get in a multiway pot with a couple smaller pairs looking to hit a set against you.

The caviat is that you have to learn when to let go of you aces post flop when you don't get anyone to raise preflop.

ZBTHorton
12-16-2005, 06:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

DPCondit
12-16-2005, 06:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What do you gain by limp re-raising that you don't by just raising

[/ QUOTE ]

You get extra money in the pot instead of a few measly blinds.

Femto
12-16-2005, 06:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The caviat is that you have to learn when to let go of you aces post flop when you don't get anyone to raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]very true.

another debate on a similar topic (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=407787 0&Searchpage=3&Main=4077870&Words=Femto&topic=&Sea rch=true#Post4077870)- summary: 45suited suggests the limp/reraise.

splashpot
12-16-2005, 06:26 PM
Never say never. Remember that hand history of that guy who won a tournament by pushing every hand? And some people were still limp/folding after he pushed like 20+ times in a row? If I was up against that guy, I'd limp UTG.

Melchiades
12-16-2005, 06:28 PM
Someone limping aces preflop and bust to BB's floppped two pair. It's always my favouirte moment in poker.

Specially when they utter a: "Unreal!" as they crash and burn.

valenzuela
12-16-2005, 06:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Someone limping aces preflop and bust to BB's floppped two pair. It's always my favouirte moment in poker.

Specially when they utter a: "Unreal!" as they crash and burn.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/mad.gif

12-16-2005, 07:03 PM
A much better question is not whether to raise, but how much? I generally pop it to $55 at the 22s and 33s. How much is a "good" UTG Aces raise assuming level 1 and no real reads on the table?

Femto
12-16-2005, 07:09 PM
more than 45 but less than 70

12-16-2005, 07:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A much better question is not whether to raise, but how much? I generally pop it to $55 at the 22s and 33s. How much is a "good" UTG Aces raise assuming level 1 and no real reads on the table?

[/ QUOTE ]

4xbb for me early. I bump all my bets up in the beginning above 3xBB and then bring them down to about 2.75xBB after blinds hit L3/4...

I find in the very early stages that opening raises with legitimate hands (the weaker ones mostly -- mid position AQ raise for instance) will just get flat-called behind by too many people with junk. So I bump it up on principal for all opening raise hands that I move with. One or two junky callers is nice, that's your goal; but it becomes a problem for AA when you have four ride alongs because you only minraised or limped. Then you get angry because you SHOULD have won, and the guy who just hit two pair w/his 76o has all ur chips.

Raising to 60-70 here discourages a horde behind you, does not cramp your oppos ability to reraise you big if he so desires (yay!), and (if called) builds a bigger pot while you have a good hand so postflop you will have a chance at extracting more money. (opps less likely to fold in bigger pots, and the 1/2 pot bet you make on the flop will be larger because of the extra PF money)

12-16-2005, 07:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Never say never. Remember that hand history of that guy who won a tournament by pushing every hand? And some people were still limp/folding after he pushed like 20+ times in a row? If I was up against that guy, I'd limp UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are actually a lot of situations for a limp with a good hand, but it is highly table-specific, and probably an overused tactic in most amatures arsenal.

Just like bringing your queen out early in chess, limping with monsters UTG is considered a weak (if sometimes successful maneuver) employed by unsophisticated players trying to force their strength in a very blunt way. (Weak is Strong Strong is Weak. Oh you limped/re-raised me big... I wonder whatcha got...)

However, Grandmasters bring their queen out early in EXTREME cases where the situation warrants the move. Because the GM is perceptive enough to see the confluence of factors that makes an early queen the correct play, he able to employ it successfully.

Similarly in Poker, one could propose a lot of situations very close to this one where a limp would be more acceptable with AA/KK, but there are small changes (number of players, blind levels, table image thus far, a lot of agression behind, a read) that drastically change the decision.

Just some more thoughts on the matter...

kyro
12-16-2005, 07:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Someone limping aces preflop and bust to BB's floppped two pair. It's always my favouirte moment in poker.

Specially when they utter a: "Unreal!" as they crash and burn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most good players generally don't bust this way even if they limp them though. This is a poor argument if you're trying to give evidence why you shouldn't limp AA preflop.

I do it, often. Maybe too often. But I don't think I've ever gone bust on the first hand unless I had a good reason to.

Melchiades
12-16-2005, 07:52 PM
I wasn't arguing you shouldn't. I just said I love it when that happens.

I never limp AA level one, but I can see that it can be effective sometimes.

Burno
12-26-2005, 03:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]


L2+ I'd agree that it's -EV to limp AA UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wha?

I concur that limping UTG with AA should not be your default play, but limping AA UTG at L2+ is most certainly +EV for all but the most godawful players.

curtains
12-26-2005, 03:32 AM
I vote for 0%-10%, but its not 0%.

ilya
12-26-2005, 03:54 AM
I would say I do it something like 10-15% of the time. I have a system but I haven't worked out all the particulars yet.