When do you move down/what do you do?

[JoshuaD]

I'm in the middle of my worst downswing so far in my career of playing.

From the last peak, I'm down about 160BB's playin 5/10 6m, over 5600 hands, spread over 3 or 4 days. It's brutal. My bankroll was at 510BB's before the downswing started.

I was a >2BB winner at this game over about 60k before this downswing.

When do I stop? What's the smartest move?

edit: Make that 170. And I quit for the day.

play through it, thats not that bad.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
play through it, thats not that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

.. so your advice is to just grind out my bankroll until I'm broke or out of the downswing?

I'm not looking for a pep-talk. I'm asking at what point in my BR should I stop trying to play through the downswing and take a step down.

Or, should I reload from savings and continue to grind the game?

[beeyjay]

I'd say when you hit $1800 if you're real worried about it.

[Femto]

I have a little ritual that I go through. When I drop past a certain point, say 10 buyins (I play SNGs), I drop 3 levels and play an hour there to blow off some steam, then play an hour at the next level, etc, and I don't move back up to my preferred stakes until I've shown a profit for a day or two at the lower stakes. I think if I had implemented this earler it would have severely cut down on the tilt aspect of my downswings, because this helps to maintain your confidence level. It feels good to be able to laugh when your QcQh gets outdrawn by QdQs, because the money doesnt matter. So ride out the downswing at a lower stakes, then move back up when they flip back the doom switch.

But for 6max...I used to play a lot of 5/10 and a little 10/20, and the downswings were always so stressful. I was rolled well enough, but I just found that if I sunk past 100BBs or so I'd just keep on sinking until I took a few days off--NO poker, NO 2+2--do other stuff for awhile, like exercise, sleep, hit on some ladies, etc. And come back mentally refreshed. IMO that's all you can do. "Working through it" is something some people can do, but not I. I prefer to take a step back and regather myself.

[JoshuaD]

Now with graph action:

http://joshman.ath.cx:81/graph.png

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a little ritual that I go through. When I drop past a certain point, say 10 buyins (I play SNGs), I drop 3 levels and play an hour there to blow off some steam, then play an hour at the next level, etc, and I don't move back up to my preferred stakes until I've shown a profit for a day or two at the lower stakes. I think if I had implemented this earler it would have severely cut down on the tilt aspect of my downswings, because this helps to maintain your confidence level. It feels good to be able to laugh when your QcQh gets outdrawn by QdQs, because the money doesnt matter. So ride out the downswing at a lower stakes, then move back up when they flip back the doom switch.

But for 6max...I used to play a lot of 5/10 and a little 10/20, and the downswings were always so stressful. I was rolled well enough, but I just found that if I sunk past 100BBs or so I'd just keep on sinking until I took a few days off--NO poker, NO 2+2--do other stuff for awhile, like exercise, sleep, hit on some ladies, etc. And come back mentally refreshed. IMO that's all you can do. "Working through it" is something some people can do, but not I. I prefer to take a step back and regather myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you feel like you were tilting before you moved down? When I start feeling burn, I just stand up. When I sat down today I felt good and ready to make money. When that feeling disapeared, I stood up.

[jba]

keep playing until you hit 3k or so, then move to 3/6 6m. that's all you can do.

btw if your 2+2 name is just like your PP 5/10 6m, I'll give you a free compliment and say you're solid.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
keep playing until you hit 3k or so, then move to 3/6 6m. that's all you can do.

btw if your 2+2 name is just like your PP 5/10 6m, I'll give you a free compliment and say you're solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[Femto]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you feel like you were tilting before you moved down? When I start feeling burn, I just stand up. When I sat down today I felt good and ready to make money. When that feeling disapeared, I stood up.

[/ QUOTE ]It's more a preventative measure. When I feel like I could start to tilt because of all the ridiculous beats, then I take action--rather than waiting until I know for sure that I'm tilting.

[Oilcan]

I've seen you, and your stats at the tables, and try to avoid playing with you or others like you.

The downswing will pass.

Cut back on the tables and/or stakes until you "get your groove back"..(you know what I mean).

Once every couple of months when something similar happens to me, I play 1 table only of my regular game and 2 tables of the next limit down until it ends.

good luck

regards

[Emmitt2222]

Dude, I had a 200BB downswing at both 3/6 and 3/6 6max. I know you have run incredibly well up to this point so its probably harder for you, but this isn't that big a downswing. I feel like I go through these weekly at least, but thats also because Im not as good. Seeing as how this is your only income I imagine its scary, but just hang in there and you will make it back considering your stellar track record. You can bitch to me anytime if you get pissed off.

[mungpo]

160bb is the worst downswing of your life? I hope not. Move down when you hit 3k.

[Victor]

160 ain bad. ive had 2 300+ and countless 200.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
160bb is the worst downswing of your life? I hope not. Move down when you hit 3k.

[/ QUOTE ]


What can I say, I ran really good at 2/4 and 3/6.

[PokerBob]

swallow your pride and play some 3/6. it should help your confidence. i'd cut down on the # of tables as well for a while.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
swallow your pride and play some 3/6. it should help your confidence. i'd cut down on the # of tables as well for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think I should drop right now?

I think you're right about the tables. I began 6-tabling for a while because I was getting bored playing 4. The downswing started a few days after I started on 6. There might be a correlation.

I didn't feel rushed or ever time out, but I may have been rushing anyway.

[pokergrader]

There is no reason at all to drop down, 5/10 is just as soft as 3/6. I have notes on you as a solid player, so just cut down the number of tables and get your confidence back.

Maybe work on your table selection a little more.

Drop down when you have 300BB for the limit below. :/

[Lmn55d]

yea 160 is a walk in the park. Welcome to the cruel world son

[robinsons]

quit being a pussy. if anything cut down the tables to 2-3. there is no point in dropping down in limits, unless you have raped your BR.

[Pog0]

[ QUOTE ]
Cut back on the tables and/or stakes until you "get your groove back"..(you know what I mean).

[/ QUOTE ]

All the advice pertaining to getting through downswings is really just advice on how to be in a good mental place.

Downswings just rip on our emotional state (especially before we're used to them. I imagine someone with 300k+ hands is used to them and doesn't worry much if at all anymore). If we can find a way to not let the decrease in winnings negatively affect our play, then we can avoid getting into less profitable situations like moving down in limits or playing fewer tables.

I actually tend to play more tables when I'm losing so to make up my lost money in less time. I told myself I'd play fewer tables today, but it just didn't seem to make any sense. I know I'm a winning player. I am confident that I can win the most by playing x tables. I can't justify playing any fewer than x tables.

The advice that makes our poker experience easier on our psychological state is typically good advice, but it's more of a work around than a solution.

Teach a man to fish. Grind your way through it.

--
for 6max, I wouldn't feel comfortable playing with <500BB for my limit though. I understand why the high limit pros don't like having <1000BB.

[Catt]

I don't have any good advice other than suck it up and move down when the bankroll is really under threat (doesn't sound like it is at the moment). 160 BBs is not a huge downswing at 6-max (nor necessarily a really huge downswing at full-ring).

Although you may not recognize me as a solid player, I'm guessing you recognize Entity as a pretty good player. Look at his graph in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=beats&Number=4039379&page =1&fpart=all) for some perspective.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
Now with graph action:

http://joshman.ath.cx:81/graph.png

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF IS THIS CRAP?

You call that a downswing?

Get the hell out of here.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF IS THIS CRAP?

You call that a downswing?

Get the hell out of here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your contribution and advice. I will value and cherish it.

[catlover]

Personally I move down when I feel I am losing confidence. This happened to me about a month ago -- 350BB downswing at rather high stakes led me to cut in half and get most of it back.

[krishanleong]

Joshua,

First off I want to say that I respect you as a poster and I don't mean to come across as a Jerk. Secondly, HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Okay, you have won 1000 BB at 5/10. If you were properly rolled (500 BB) you should have 1500 BB. Why do you only have 500 BB? You realize bankroll is different concept that the amount of money you have on site. If your bankroll is not 340 BB than you might need to consider moving down. I'm hoping you can reload at any time though (you alude to it in a later post).

If you have a larger bankroll and are just worried about not having enough on site, why would that cause you to move down. The amount you have on site is immaterial if you can deposit more at the drop of a dime (Ha).

Next, if you think you are a winner, and that seems likely since you are over a 1.7 BB /100 winner over 5K hands, why move down if bankroll isn't an issue? There are reasons to move down if you are properly bankrolled. You might be tilting and need to play a game where you are a heavy favorite. Build confidence. That sort of thing.

But hell if you need to built confidence everytime you drop 160 bets, you are never going to get everywhere. (Especially in 6-max) How can I put this in perspective? I've had losing streaks that lasted longer than your entire career at 5/10.

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4064321&an=0&page=9#Post 4064321)

NLSoldier dropped over 800 BB. That's a swing 5 times the magnitude of your measly complaint.

Soldier (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4039379&an=0&page=0#Post 4039379)

I've also dropped 240 bets in 24 hours. These things happen in shorthand limit. You have to toughen up to survive.

Krishan

[JoshuaD]

Krishan: Thanks for the response.

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, you have won 1000 BB at 5/10. If you were properly rolled (500 BB) you should have 1500 BB. Why do you only have 500 BB? You realize bankroll is different concept that the amount of money you have on site. If your bankroll is not 340 BB than you might need to consider moving down. I'm hoping you can reload at any time though (you alude to it in a later post).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm living off my poker income and I'm paying off school debt. Every month I prune my (onsite) BR back down to 500BB's, and transfer the rest to a liquid fund. I then take my monthly expenses out of that.

The liquid fund is also my "gonna pay off school debt" fund, so I'm reluctant to tap into it. I've been "pro" since april, and I've yet to have a month where I didn't crack my nut. Being halfway through the month and being twice as far away from my nut as I was at the beginning of the month was a little disconcerting.

Going broke to 0 is something I can bear, going broke to -20k with no income is something I can't. That's why I am conservative when it comes to taking shots. I want out of debt real bad, once I get that, then I can gamb00l some.

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a larger bankroll and are just worried about not having enough on site, why would that cause you to move down. The amount you have on site is immaterial if you can deposit more at the drop of a dime (Ha).

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said above, I wanna use that money to get out of debt. I'll tap into it if I need to, but I'd almost rather move down than reload. (Not sure about this yet, one of the reasons I posted this thread, I wanted some other people's insight).

[ QUOTE ]
Next, if you think you are a winner, and that seems likely since you are over a 1.7 BB /100 winner over 5K hands, why move down if bankroll isn't an issue? There are reasons to move down if you are properly bankrolled. You might be tilting and need to play a game where you are a heavy favorite. Build confidence. That sort of thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, confidence really isn't the issue. When I sat down today I felt great and ready to make money. When I stood up I felt like I could continue playing and playing my A game. I still feel that way.

I'm realizing now that 160BB's really is nothing, but it's the biggest downswing I had, and it happened pretty quickly. I've never experienced this sort of swing in my year of playing, so to me it seemed like a big deal. Guess I was just lucky. ^_^

Those huge swings you talk about really surprise me. If you don't mind talking about it publicly, I'm curious what your numbers are:
<ul type="square"> STD/100
BB/100
VP$IP
PFR
Total hands played at 6m.
[/list]


In short: What happened to the 300BB = tiny risk of ruin days? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[JoshuaD]

Jesus, my graph is beautiful compared to some of those horror stories from that thread. This is just a little blip.

[Subfallen]

how is it even possible for 160BB to be your worst downswing? that's amazing...i have 100BB downswings almost daily. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[JoshuaD]

So I've been trying to play through this, and it's staying bad. I'm down to 310BB's in my BR, and I've got no anger control. I dropped 20BB's today and I had to get up because I wanted to hit something.

Here's the graph for this month.

http://joshman.ath.cx:81/thismonth.png

I'm a defeated man right now. I can't sit down because if I drop another 10BB's I'll probably murder someone. Plz help.

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the middle of my worst downswing so far in my career of playing.

From the last peak, I'm down about 160BB's playin 5/10 6m, over 5600 hands, spread over 3 or 4 days. It's brutal. My bankroll was at 510BB's before the downswing started.

I was a &gt;2BB winner at this game over about 60k before this downswing.

When do I stop? What's the smartest move?

edit: Make that 170. And I quit for the day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Move up you will get it back twice as fast. If you move down you will be stuck for a longer period of time.

I'm only kidding. Come on 160 isn't that bad.

[Jstyal]

You should move down immediately since your bankroll is not expandible. Try the most 3/6, but I recommend 1/2 until your game gets back on track. Your bankroll will thank you later.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a defeated man right now. I can't sit down because if I drop another 10BB's I'll probably murder someone. Plz help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a short break. Work on emotional control. Downswings are frustrating and painful, but you must learn to live with them, and play through them, if you're going to play this game, especially shorthanded. That doesn't mean you need to play through them non-stop when they're taking an emotional toll on you that compromises your game -- but it does mean that you need constantly work on disassociating results from play and concentrate on playing well. Sounds trite, but look at this as an opportunity to strengthen (which is to say weaken) the emotional side of your game.