22: BB, 2+2er in SB

[45suited]

PP 22. Blinds 50-100. I knew the SB to be a 2+2er and he had open pushed his last chance from the SB. Do you like my call with 44?


UTG ( $800 )
CO( $2439 )
Button( $3136 )
SB ( $790 )
BB (HERO) ( $835 )

Blinds(50/100)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 4c 4s ]
UTG folds.
CO folds.
Button folds.
SB is all-In [740]
BB (HERO) calls [690].

[45suited]

Just in case this appears to be a stupid question, here's my thinking with the call. Yes I know that I could be dominated but I am likely just a slight favorite. I could pass and push when I'm the SB. But I also know that this crap is never going to stop, so I might as well just take my stand now with likely the better hand. The stack sizes were such that, when it comes around next time, I might find myself in a much worse position, and a much worse hand. Comments?

[jb9]

I'd be lying if I said I actually like calling all in bets with 44, but I think he's probably pushing with any 2 and you are going to have trouble stealing blinds from those big stacks if your chip count gets smaller, so if you are ready for a coin flip, go for it and hope he doesn't have 55.

[bluefeet]

2+2er knows he can push any two here. He only needs to push outside of top 35% for this call to be +EV. Given your "read" on who's doing the pushing, the call isn't debatable in that respect.

[xJMPx]

Personally I don't like it. Although he is a 2+2er, which means he's pushing any two here, there are a lot of hands that contain two over cards to your 44. I'd only call with pockets when I think there is a very decent chance one of his cards will be lower. Ie, when I have like 77+.

Let's see what SNGPT says...just as I suspected, I'm wrong. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

If he's pushing any two it is +2.0$EV to call. He has to be pushing a tighter range than top 35% (22+,A2+,K5o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,J9s+) to make this a fold.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I don't like it. Although he is a 2+2er, which means he's pushing any two here, there are a lot of hands that contain two over cards to your 44. I'd only call with pockets when I think there is a very decent chance one of his cards will be lower. Ie, when I have like 77+.

Let's see what SNGPT says...just as I suspected, I'm wrong. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

If he's pushing any two it is +2.0$EV to call. He has to be pushing a tighter range than top 35% (22+,A2+,K5o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,J9s+) to make this a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was also taking into account, not just this hand, but what will likely transpire the rest of the game. Constantly having him push into me. Me having a hard time stealing from the bigstacks. It wasn't shaping up to be a pretty game. I think that I just had to take the chance and make my stand here. Of course, it's a huge bonus that if he IS pushing any two (likely) then the call is +EV on its on merits. But larger game factors also apply, IMO.

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
I was also taking into account, not just this hand, but what will likely transpire the rest of the game. Constantly having him push into me. Me having a hard time stealing from the bigstacks. It wasn't shaping up to be a pretty game. I think that I just had to take the chance and make my stand here. Of course, it's a huge bonus that if he IS pushing any two (likely) then the call is +EV on its on merits. But larger game factors also apply, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, this is something I don't think I put enough thought into during game play. I have to work on that.

[tigerite]

This is a pretty easy call, 45s.

[tigerite]

Oh yeah and he probably never pushes AA here and only sometimes KK so you can factor that into the ranges argument as well.

[11t]

I think if villain knew hero was a 2+2'r as well than he would be open pushing AA/KK here.

Anyways if I was SB I am pushing AA/KK and any hand within my pushable range. I love shania though.

[tigerite]

I would almost always push KK and usually AA as well, the only time I might not is if I knew the 2p2'er was a lover of the all-in re-raise move to any sb limp. Which I do myself so I can't fault it too much. Just saying that it's at least possible they aren't in his range.

[11t]

If I was BB and I knew the SB was a 2+2'r when he incorrectly limped or even more suspiciously raised 3/8 of his stack pf, I would immediately think "oh he has aces, hope I can flop two pair" and proceed to check.

Honestly, I don't even need to take notes on players in SNG's I just note all the people who are regulars at the limits I play. I mean the vast majority play so robotically that their "mixing it up plays" are just as transparent.

Of course if you knew that I knew that you would only limp pf with AA than you could outplay me in a lot of pots, however I don't think most people are that crazy/smart. But then maybe I would catch on and I would know that you knew that I thought... it is a never ending circle of reasoning I guess.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
2+2er knows he can push any two here. He only needs to push outside of top 35% for this call to be +EV. Given your "read" on who's doing the pushing, the call isn't debatable in that respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

man, i gotta fire up my sngpt when i get home. i thought this was close but a fold.

[ QUOTE ]
the 2p2'er was a lover of the all-in re-raise move to any sb limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guilty as charged /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

not sure I call. You are at best facing 2 over cards making you a slight favorite, and at worse a big dog to a higher pair. Given your knowledge that he is 2+2 a call is probably ok, but I think I would still fold... I hate calling, I like pushing 1st!

[tigerite]

Well I still think there's enough chance he doesn't have AA when he pushes to discount it; which means his range is 22% to call here (22+,A3o+,A2s+,KJo+,KTs+,QJs).

It's easily that much. You need to be a 48.4% favourite to call here and I would without question to a 2+2er.. and to most players for that matter!

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I don't like it. Although he is a 2+2er, which means he's pushing any two here, there are a lot of hands that contain two over cards to your 44. I'd only call with pockets when I think there is a very decent chance one of his cards will be lower. Ie, when I have like 77+.

Let's see what SNGPT says...just as I suspected, I'm wrong. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

If he's pushing any two it is +2.0$EV to call. He has to be pushing a tighter range than top 35% (22+,A2+,K5o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,J9s+) to make this a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was also taking into account, not just this hand, but what will likely transpire the rest of the game. Constantly having him push into me. Me having a hard time stealing from the bigstacks. It wasn't shaping up to be a pretty game. I think that I just had to take the chance and make my stand here. Of course, it's a huge bonus that if he IS pushing any two (likely) then the call is +EV on its on merits. But larger game factors also apply, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great points...

[tigerite]

There is also the factor that when you call and win you can pwn the current UTG so much and pushbot perfectly into his BB when folded to. This alone is worth some $EV and probably more than most people realise.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Just in case this appears to be a stupid question, here's my thinking with the call. Yes I know that I could be dominated but I am likely just a slight favorite. I could pass and push when I'm the SB. But I also know that this crap is never going to stop, so I might as well just take my stand now with likely the better hand. The stack sizes were such that, when it comes around next time, I might find myself in a much worse position, and a much worse hand. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call 44 here... I would call any suited ace, not 33/22, and call A6o+, and call KTo+/K8s+. Hm, that's almost exactly what SnGPT says for the default maniac push range... 44+/A5o+/A2s/KTo/K9s to call. (The maniac range is any ace any king any queen J7s+/J9o+/T8s+/98s).

[ QUOTE ]
Given your knowledge that he is 2+2 a call is probably ok, but I think I would still fold... I hate calling, I like pushing 1st!

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it really make a difference if he is a known 2+2r in this particular hand? Is it because you now include 23o to 34s in his range? Does it really matter if he's pushing AK or 75? I prefer saving myself for open-pushing, but for the reasons the OP gave about future opportunities to open-push will be limited because the player to his immediate right is a 2+2r, I think I like this call in this spot.

[tigerite]

No. The reason that any two is a higher EV is because there are more overcards in his range the more he pushes with rather than overpairs. This should be pretty obvious really.

If he turned over AK you should absolutely call here, there is no question about this.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
There is also the factor that when you call and win you can pwn the current UTG so much and pushbot perfectly into his BB when folded to. This alone is worth some $EV and probably more than most people realise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge consideration, IMO. FWIW, villain had K7s, my hand held up. And yes, I was then able to abuse the current UTG with my chipstack.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

And yes, I was then able to abuse the current UTG with my chipstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very important argument for calling.