miniraising limpers from the BB?

I tend to see that play all too much at SSNL and I always tend to laugh, but I have been thinking, though, that it MIGHT actually be profitable to miniraise w. small PP when there are 5+ limpers. It's like a LHE mentality to build a pot w/ a "big draw" in which case the big draw is a set draw which comes 7:1 times. By making this preflop pot sweetener, you aren't changing the odds, and ARE increasing the size of the pot and the chance to stack someone's TPTK/2pr etc.

What do you guys think?

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I tend to see that play all too much at SSNL and I always tend to laugh, but I have been thinking

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I tend to cry when I see that and no I think it sucks.
Are you going to check fold every time you miss the flop or are you going to bet into 4-5 callers?
I think you can stack someone that hit TP without the "pot sweetener"

It might drive someone like me nuts tho, so it might work but in a different way.

[4_2_it]

Do it more than once at my table and I'm limp re-raising you all-in in an orbit or two. Seriously, if you hit and someone is going to have a 2nd best hand and will donate their stack, why pay double to see the flop?

Right, but not EVERYbody who plays is willing to put in their whole stack with hands like KJ on K 7 2 board - they will sometimes just flat call to river when in position. By simply making this one small re-raise preflop you DOUBLE THE SIZE OF THE POT THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE HAND. You're once PSB of 1.25$ will now become 2.50$ and your turn bet will be doubled.

It may cost you an extra BB here and there (cuz I mean how often do you get PP in BB with 5+ limpers? It's a rarity, sort of.)

I think it's worth it and will start doing it as much as possible.

Any other comments?

[Mathemagician]

From the blinds, this makes some sense to me. With 4-5 callers who will nearly always just call the minraise at SSNL, you are getting 8-10:1 immediate odds on your 7:1 draw. This does qualify as a value bet.

The only downside is that you might get reraised by someone who gives you insufficient odds to call. At SSNL, this is uncommon in my experience and if you do it when you have a highish PP you can call, expecting to find someone playing sherriff with overcards or a lower PP most of the time. You will see higher PP with a frequency that is proportional to the size of your PP (I always wanted to say that), but I think it's +EV in the long run. Remember, something doesn't have to work 100% of the time to be +EV.

M

I see your point about doubling the pot size. If find it difficult to get their entire stack if they only have one pair. Decent players don't put their whole stack on the line with one pair especially in multiway pots like that one.

The downside is that you are virtually cutting your implied odds in half for the cases when you are able to get someone's stack. The stacks are half the size relative to the new pot.

IMO, the fact that you're cutting both your pot and implied and the chance that someone will re-raise makes this a bad idea.

[bizaff]

I think if you try this, as soon as someone decides to repop it bigtime like 4_2_it is saying, you need to stop. You're sweetening the pot at the risk of getting blown off your hand by someone observant of what you're doing.

Personally, I think doubling your implied odds is far more important than doubling the pot size. With more people in, the pot is more likely to build anyway.

I like this play! It works for me on NL25 tend to getmore action wehn I flop the set otherwise its check/fold but I would call a raise according to 5/10 and most of the time chsck/fold unimproved. The pros dominate the cons.

good discussion

I will try it once in a while

[kurto]

It's bad. If there are any good or even aggressive players, they'll put in a big reraise.

The point of small pp's is to hit it a set. The whole idea is to see a flop cheaply. By doubling the cost for you to see a flop, you're only punishing yourself.

Frankly, I laugh at people who would minraise from the button. Its almost always a sign of a bad player.

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen this:

4-5 limpers... button or BB minraises... a few callers; someone pushes, everyone including the minraiser folds. Same with the people who minbet the flop from early position. They're almost always huge fish. They throw a little money out giveing EVERYONE correct odds for any draw and, if anyone has a hand and raises, they fold. So, they just donated charity.

Though I don't want to discourage you from doing it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[kurto]

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I see your point about doubling the pot size. If find it difficult to get their entire stack if they only have one pair. Decent players don't put their whole stack on the line with one pair especially in multiway pots like that one.



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Decent players aren't going to be fooled by this. They're only going to profit from it.

I have plenty of notes on people who minraise with small pocket pairs. You can always tell if they hit. So... anytime there are overcards, you can always steal from them with nothing.

I'm telling you... you play like this, you're giving information away to your opponents and you're labeling yourself as a fish.

Make a real raise or no raise at all.

If this is true that aggressive players put in a big reraise after a min raise, I wonder if it would be a good strategy to put in a min raise with aces. Then after they put in a big reraise *pow* come over the top of them.

[tagtastic]

Simply advertises low to mid pockets IMO. When any halfway decent player pulls this I immediately a) lose respect for them and b) can read their hand like a book and use it against them by pushing them off unimproved pairs or folding to obvious sets with hand I'd otherwise give action with.

If you were at a table where you really thought none of your opponents would pick up on this tell, by all means, go ahead - 90% of the time these silly little raises just get called down by the rest of the table, jucing the pot.