Stop and Go Criteria

[tewall]

From an article of Jeremiah Smith:

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1. You are in one of the blinds

2. You will be heads-up

3. You have at least 8 times the big blind preflop

4. Your opponent has a similar stack size or a little more.


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If you find yourself with a hand like 4-4 or A-10 and your blind is raised, your first impulse is to usually just push all-in before the flop. Sometimes a better option is to just call from the blind with the intention of pushing all-in no matter what the flop brings. Why? Because you give yourself an extra chance of making your opponent fold, often with the better hand.


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What do you think of this advice? What criteria do you use for stop and go?

[tigerite]

Well those 4 are all well and good, but the absolute most important factor is the read on your opponent!

[wiggs73]

More generally, you should be first to act on the flop and feel that you have no fold equity pre-flop, but some post-flop. It's also helpful if your hand has some showdown value.

[ZeroPointMachine]

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3. You have at least 8 times the big blind preflop



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This advice applies to MTTs. In a MTT 8BB can be a very small stack relative to the rest of the table/field and can justify this high risk move. In a STT 8BB is a healthy stack and there are better ways to use it.

If you never use a stop-n-go in a STT you will be much better off than if you use it incorrectly even a small percentage of the time.

[tewall]

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If you never use a stop-n-go in a STT you will be much better off than if you use it incorrectly even a small percentage of the time.


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Thanks. This is helpful advice, as it's difficult to know how to use it correctly. Lots of differing advice on this, and I've never seen any mathematical analysis.

[downtown]

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If you never use a stop-n-go in a STT you will be much better off than if you use it incorrectly even a small percentage of the time.


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Thanks. This is helpful advice, as it's difficult to know how to use it correctly. Lots of differing advice on this, and I've never seen any mathematical analysis.

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FWIW I almost never use the Stop n Go in STTs anymore. I would guess a good situation (where there aren't better ways to get chips, i.e. open pushing) to use it maybe once in 100 tourneys, but hey, that guess could be off by an order of magnitude, so whatever.

In MTTs I find it much more useful.

[tewall]

Ok, here's a specific situation I've been thinking about. You're in the Big Blind with 15xBB. Stealer_Dude raises you 3xBB, and the small blind passes. If you want to re-steal should you push right away, or sit and go? Does it make a difference what your hand is? (e.g. push some hands, but stop and go others)

[ZeroPointMachine]

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Ok, here's a specific situation I've been thinking about. You're in the Big Blind with 15xBB. Stealer_Dude raises you 3xBB, and the small blind passes. If you want to re-steal should you push right away, or sit and go? Does it make a difference what your hand is? (e.g. push some hands, but stop and go others)

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You should always raise/push when you have decent fold equity. The stop-n-go should only be used in a STT when pushing gives you no chance of winning before the flop.

If you insist on using it in a STT it should look something like this:

You are the BB with 350 behind and 150 posted.

Button with ~1200 min-raises to 300t.(Don't ask why)

SB folds, Hero????

Pushing has no fold equity. Your stack is really pathetic and your desperate.

Hero calls 150 more and pushes his last 200 at any flop in the hope that Villain will hate the flop so much that he gives up for 200t more and preserve his 900t stack.

Notice that your cards, his range and the flop are irrelavent.

One of the reasons that this play is rarely right in a SNG tourney is that if Villain is donkish enough to min-raise here he is usually capable of folding some percentage of time to a push.

There is a flip side to the stop and go that should be mentioned here

The all in preflop puts pressure on WEAKER hands to fold [big range] and makes it a mistake to call. The stop and go puts pressure on SLIGHTLY STRONGER hands than yours (but not monsters) [a much smaller range] that will fold to nasty overcards if they hit the board...

Viewing poker as a game of incomplete information illuminates the stop and go to some extent:

You have PREDECIDED without seeing the flop that you are going to push, and then you allow the flop to come and AFTER allow your opponent to decide if he wants to call. (of course he doesn't know you made the decision in advance... contrasted to Phil Hellmuth's many checks in the dark as a tactic in the same realm of thought)

In these circumstances a J6 beats your A9 because he can see the J on the flop and calls where he would have folded PF. So you lose EV against all weaker hands, lose EV against all very strong hands, and gain EV against moderate hands when the flop falls to your favor.

So you must employ a sharp read on your opponent as to the calibur of his hand/his ability to make tough folds for moderate pot-odds (if ur stack was so large to f his odds up, u shouldn't need to stop and go with crummy hands) and his desire to remain in the tournament.

It is a beautiful thing when it works, but like many tactics I feel it is overused by amatures when the conditions are not +EV for the move.

[xJMPx]

tewall, stop n go's are something I've been struggle with as well. Here's a couple threads that may be of some interest to you.

($11) KQ is so purdy. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4053581&page=0&fpart=1&v c=1)

($22) Stop N Go here? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4186630&page=0&fpart=all &vc=1)

[tipperdog]

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More generally, you should be first to act on the flop and feel that you have no fold equity pre-flop, but some post-flop. It's also helpful if your hand has some showdown value.

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This is exactly right, IMO. Also key is when you have a hand that's vulnerable and your post flop push may induce a bad fold.

For example:

You have 77 in the BB with blinds of 100/200. You have 800 chips before posting. A loose raiser miniraises to 400.

If you push pre-flop, miniraiser almost certainly calls--and that call will almost certainly be correct. If you stop 'n' go, he might fold a hand like JK post-flop, despite having correct odds to call. But put yourself in his shoes (with a hand like KJ). If the flop comes Q83, and you push, that's a pretty tough call.

Of course, if he makes the "right" decision and calls, it's no loss to you. It would have been the same result as a pre-flop push from you anyway.

[tigerite]

Thing is you don't want him to fold KJ there if you only have 600 left, because your hand has such great showdown strength and actually wants to be in as a 55% favourite or whatever.

Now, if you could somehow guarantee he'd fold 88 and 99 there or something on an AKT flop.. then it's very different.

[tipperdog]

No. Recheck my example (I set up all these chip counts to illustrate a "perfect" stop-n-go situation--I agree they're rare in STTs). You have 800 before the hand starts. You post 200 and call an additional 200 PF. You now have T400 left and the pot is T900. When you push, he is offered better than 3:1 odds (1,300:400), which means he SHOULD call with KJ. If he folds, it's a "bad" fold and you make $$.

[tigerite]

Who cares about his odds though? I want the extra 400 chips because I am ahead of his hand, and you shouldn't be afraid to take a 55/45 when you are short stacked like that, unless it's on the bubble and there's a micro stack or some other ridiculous situation. You WANT to be all in as a favourite here!

[tipperdog]

What you really want to do is maximize your value, and that is accomplished in my example by a stop 'n' go rather than a straight push. You are correct that pushing is a good play (you get your $$ is as the favorite), but it is not THE BEST play. Remember, you are only a "coin flip" if you see all 5 cards. A SnG stands a good chance of denying the overcards the opportunity to see all five--and that's a real coup for you.

In my example, you should be happy as a gay cowboy on brokeback mountain if your opponent folds his overs on the flop when he has odds to call. He has made a FTOP error, and that's great for you. If you push PF and he calls, he hasn't made an error at all (and neither have you). What the stop 'n' go does is creates a situation where you opponent can err--and THAT'S playing poker.

[tewall]

Why does it lose EV against very strong hands?

Say the stealer will raise with any two. If you push, he'll call with whatever his calling range is. If you stop and go, then the push is twice the pot. This involves another range to call. If we say the stealer will only call with top pair of better, then he's got I think about a 15% chance of calling. So is this 15% likely to be less than what he would called with on an immediate pre-flop push?

It seems to me the two plays are very close. One advantage I see to the stop and go is that if the stop and go'er hits his hand, he doesn't have to push. He can try to leverage the times he hits the flop, and bluff the times he misses.