More edge to the good player in low limit stud?

[MRBAA]

Got in a few hours of 5-10 stud for the first time in almost two months last night at Foxwoods. The game was very good, I had CJC on my right (only mildly negative EV for me, as opposed to a money suck when he's on my left)...and I still managed to lose. But it was only $15, on a card dead night.

At 4-8 he, I could easily have dropped 10 times as much under similar circumstances and it got me thinking as follows: in a loose low limit game with equally mediocre opponents, I think the good player has much more edge in stud.

This is due to the exposed board cards. Bad opponents in stud, through a combination of betting patterns and exposed cards, often give you a pretty precise idea about their hands. Whereas in hold em you are more often left with several possible alternatives.

For example, when a weak loose, but experienced, player three bets your queen showing on third with a little card in the door, you know he almost certainly has aces or kings down. If he was rolled he'd smooth call, and he'd never have the deceptiveness to three bet with any other holding.

There are many, many situations where the simplicity of opponents play combined with cards seen gives you a lot of control.

This lets you get away from your hand with almost complete certainty (or play it with a big edge depending on what you have, who else is in and what you catch on fouth).

Situations like this in hold em are much rarer. And because the flop changes things so dramatically, your edge in having the best hand at the start is much less. Results-wise, I certainly win more at stud, so I may be biased. But I'm curious if others share my thoughts on this?

[banditbdl]

I agree in low-limit games there is a bigger advantage to the good player in stud versus holdem. Besides the information you learn about your opponents from their boards you also have to factor in that many of your opponents don't bother to factor in how other player's board cards effect the value of their hands. For instance, players who are incredulous when they didn't catch their open-ended straight draw with 5 of their 8 outs are dead on the board. The board cards provide a wealth of information to good players that your opponents aren't taking advantage of.

[Wombat6]

the good players can win more in the long run in stud rather than hold em because of the hidden river card.
this buried river coupled with the ante structure also increases the variation.

[Dynasty]

In Las Vegas, I have little doubt you can make more money playing hold 'em anywhere from the lowest limits up to 30-60. This is almost entirely due to the much better game selection available for hold 'em players.

[banditbdl]

Excellent point Dynasty, I believe that stud games due offer some advantages, but table selection is a key to winning poker and it certainly isn't one of the advantages in stud. I keep seeing fewer and fewer new faces at stud tables, all the newbies (read fish) are heading for the holdem tables.

[CJC]

Hello All,

MRBAA 2 quotes to me while I was sitting next to him at this game.

1) Don't raise and steal my antes. I WILL RE-RAISE you back.

2) Don't bluff-raise raise the river. I will call you. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I never got a chance to do either... /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

Great seeing you again. After you left I went over and played in my 'normal' 10-20 game. It was as good as that 5-10 game. I made all my money that I 'donated' in Hold'Em back. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

CJ

[Wombat6]

I have yet to see more than 5 really bad stud games in the more than half a decade since moving to Las Vegas.

I cannot say this about hold em. especially those games 15-30 and above. I seen at least 12 at these limits.

I do however agree with you for the lowest stud limits. But game selection has little or nothing to do with it. it is the 10% to 15% rake on the average sized pot that kills your profit margin here. Not the skill of the opponents.

your right about the game selection though, it sucks.

Wombat6

[SittingBull]

In Hold'em,your MADE HAND will hold up much more frequently than they will in stud. Hence,a CHASER in Hold'em will not succeed as nearly as much in winning as a stud chaser will.
In low-limit hold'en,players will see QXo,JXo against your AK,AQ and will play ALL THE WAY to the river when U connect with TOP pair,TOP KICKER.
They will chase belly-busters without pot odds and play ANY TWO CARDS to see the flop.
NO, MRB! The stud chaser WILL suck out much mroe often than the Hold'em player will.
A good low-limit hold'em player will earn much more than a good low-limit stud player.
In hold'em your MADE HAND IS KING pre-flop and on the flop. In stud,u have a LONG way to go before U can claim that U are the "NEW BOSS" by the river.
HappyPokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[CJC]

Hello Larry,

Whether or not a 'made' hand holds up in Hold'Em more often than Stud is irrelevant when deciding whether a good Hold'Em or Stud player will make more money. It's true that pocket Aces will hold up more than in Hold'Em than stud, but there is so much more to consider than this!

I believe even Mason has suggested that the best Stud players make more than the best Hold'Em players. I really don't see how the limits would matter. ( IMPORTANT..assuming all else is equal!! )

Now its true that the fish are schooling to the Hold'Em tables these days. ( Thanks Travel Channel ) But I have noticed the same trend at the Stud tables. ( Including the $20-40 games )

Dynasty really put the hammer on the head of the nail with his post concerning game selection. That says it all! Depending on where you are at the time, and what games are going, will ultimately decide...

All things being equal, like I said.. give me a good stud game. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

CJ

[patrick dicaprio]

you and CJC were there. good thing for me i have been playing in AC instead of foxwoods!

one aspect that you didnt mention is that players will play absolute garbage if the pot is not raised. this also gives you a big advantage if you limp in with a hand like AK/x and catch perfect on fourth street.

i do agree with your thesis.

pat

[Wombat6]

but when they chase most the time they wont catch and that extra betting round provides more profit, an extra full bet more, for them to pay off.

so much for this branch of the argument.

[Wombat6]

think more players, less rake. the ability to have the absolute nuts. generally maniacal vs generally passive wagering. (im not saying this is correct) this is the logical argument for LL HE over LL stud.

[SittingBull]

[SittingBull]