72s is marginal at best [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : 72s is marginal at best

12-16-2005, 11:34 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 folds, CO bets, Hero folds

TheHip41

12-16-2005, 11:43 AM

two chances to fold preflop, and missed them both /images/graemlins/grin.gif

12-16-2005, 11:55 AM

I understand calling in the SB the first time, but to call the raise... I would have mucked it.

On the flop, I don't see how/why you can call this... especially two bets back to you. One bet, maybe. You have about 5 outs. Muck it after two bets.

Turn... this is a fold.

River... you finally folded.

12-16-2005, 11:56 AM

Against how many loose limpers do you start limping any two suited from the SB?

TheHip41

12-16-2005, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand calling in the SB the first time, but to call the raise... I would have mucked it.

On the flop, I don't see how/why you can call this... especially two bets back to you. One bet, maybe. You have about 5 outs. Muck it after two bets.

Turn... this is a fold.

River... you finally folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you got every comment wrong man.

Preflop, it's a fold the first time around for sure. once it's raised, hero now is getting 7-1 to call with suited trash. I'd rather call this time around because at least now you have some flush draw value.

Flop: He as 13 outs. I'd think about 3 betting, but probably just call since I have no overs.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn... this is a fold.

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are you serious? Hero has about 15 outs here. Flush + double gutshot. Anyone that folds here doesn't understand counting outs.

TheHip41

12-16-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against how many loose limpers do you start limping any two suited from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not with 2 limpers. If you had, say, 75s, that's different, but 72s has little high card power, no straight card power, only flush power.

If there were 4 limpers, then i'd probably call with any two suited.

Edit: Id probably still fold hands like 72, 83, 82, 92,

I think they wouldhave to be 3 gappers at most, becuase at least you can flop a gutshot that way, ie, 95s, 84s, 73s

12-16-2005, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against how many loose limpers do you start limping any two suited from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]
In a 1-2 structure like this hand, I will call with anything suited after there are 4 limpers. I dont know if this is correct but thats the basic strategy ive been using.

TheHip41

12-16-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against how many loose limpers do you start limping any two suited from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]
In a 1-2 structure like this hand, I will call with anything suited after there are 4 limpers. I dont know if this is correct but thats the basic strategy ive been using.

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He asked me, not you. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Harv72b

12-16-2005, 12:44 PM

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I understand calling in the SB the first time, but to call the raise... I would have mucked it.

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Folding to the raise after completing initially would be terrible. Now, the initial completion is very questionable given the number of limpers, but calling the raise should be automatic.

Harv72b

12-16-2005, 12:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against how many loose limpers do you start limping any two suited from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Four is good. Three is acceptable if you're strong postflop or the three limpers are absolutely terrible postflop players. Two is generally not going to be +EV.

12-16-2005, 12:50 PM

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Preflop, it's a fold the first time around for sure. once it's raised, hero now is getting 7-1 to call with suited trash. I'd rather call this time around because at least now you have some flush draw value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that I'm also getting 7:1 on the first preflop call.

12-16-2005, 01:00 PM

I still don't agree with calling that raise pre-flop even with those odds. If there were no raises, and you were on the button, would you limp in with this with the same odds? I wouldn't...

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: He as 13 outs. I'd think about 3 betting, but probably just call since I have no overs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mistakenly undervalued the flush outs because of Hero's high card being only a 7. On the same hand, I think you're overvaluing them for the same reason. Some others might have the same draw, but with a higher card.

[ QUOTE ]
are you serious? Hero has about 15 outs here. Flush + double gutshot. Anyone that folds here doesn't understand counting outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I missed the other gutshot with the 4. However, I still think you're giving too many outs to the flush. It's not the nut flush.

12-16-2005, 01:40 PM

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I still don't agree with calling that raise pre-flop even with those odds. If there were no raises, and you were on the button, would you limp in with this with the same odds? I wouldn't...

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I actually think calling the raise preflop is the worst part of the hand. Usually I wouldn't fold after calling, but I think special circumstances exist in the small blind.

As for limping in the small blind, the reason you can open your standards a lot more is because it is much easier to recoup 0.25BB postflop than 0.5BB, even out of position.

12-16-2005, 01:46 PM

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As for limping in the small blind, the reason you can open your standards a lot more is because it is much easier to recoup 0.25BB postflop than 0.5BB, even out of position.

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I said this in my first post:

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I understand calling in the SB the first time,

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Basically, I agree with your limp.

Harv72b

12-16-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
it is much easier to recoup 0.25BB postflop than 0.5BB, even out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the ideal position postflop vs. the PFR. You can bet out the flop if you catch two pair or what have you, expecting him to raise, or check/raise with a stronger hand/draw. And you have to make up more than .25 BB in order to make a hand like 72s +EV, as the 7:1 pot odds you're getting on the initial completion aren't enough to justify playing it.

All that said, and understanding the fact that you are getting identical pot odds the second time around, calling the raise is mandatory. You should never (and I mean never) fold a hand preflop which you already VPIP'd with for 1 additional bet, not in a limit game. When a player raises behind you, especially the BB (which typically means a big PP, or at least AK), your implied odds go up significantly, which makes it worthwhile to see the flop.

12-16-2005, 01:59 PM

You played the hand perfectly in my opinion. Don't listen to a couple of these weak tight players.

zgall1

12-16-2005, 02:04 PM

I think it is a pretty bad move to just start assuming that other players are on a higher flush draw in a 1/2 game just because they are passively calling bets. Most of these players are bad and would be doing the same thing with any number of hands. I wouldn't start discounting flush outs until I was given a much better reason to do so.

12-16-2005, 02:11 PM

Harv,

I think the rule of thumb you are quoting applies to situations in which you have already invested a full small bet. A +EV situation is defined as one where you will, on average, expect to earn more postflop than your original investment (I'm pretty sure this is the definition provided in SSHE, although someone should check this). Calling for half a bet is different than calling for a full bet, even though the current pot odds are the same. This is because the bet sizes postflop become relatively smaller to your investment.

There was a hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4196340&an=0&page=1#Post 4196340) recently on here involving 55 on the button, that was faced with 3 bets cold preflop after 3 cold callers, basically giving the poster 5:1 immediate odds on his call. Typically, this is where most players would cut off calling for set value. The odds for flopping a set are about 7.5:1, meaning that the OP would have to make up an additional 2.5 small bets postflop to make up for this. This would be an easy call if it were for a single bet, as 1.25BB is not that hard to make up postflop against 4 loose players. But the situation was for THREE bets. This means the OP would have to make up 3.75BB postflop to make up for this. Although the immediate odds are the same, the implied odds are significantly different.

My point is that the implied odds for calling one small bet and then an additional small bet are identical; however, to call one small bet and pay twice that when it comes back to you is different. If calling for half a small bet in the SB is very marginal, then folding to a raise is mandatory.

EDIT: to include link.

TheHip41

12-16-2005, 02:15 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Preflop, it's a fold the first time around for sure. once it's raised, hero now is getting 7-1 to call with suited trash. I'd rather call this time around because at least now you have some flush draw value.

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Note that I'm also getting 7:1 on the first preflop call.

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Note that you have suited trash the first time around.

Note I said fold the first 'and' second time around.

I like the flop and turn, preflop is not good.

TheHip41

12-16-2005, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

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Flop: He as 13 outs. I'd think about 3 betting, but probably just call since I have no overs.

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I mistakenly undervalued the flush outs because of Hero's high card being only a 7. On the same hand, I think you're overvaluing them for the same reason. Some others might have the same draw, but with a higher card.

You're right, I missed the other gutshot with the 4. However, I still think you're giving too many outs to the flush. It's not the nut flush.

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Yes, I always worry someone has a higher flush draw, or someone always has a bigger set, etc.

Don't be weak tight, hero's hand my look bad, but on the turn, it's got mucho equity.

12-16-2005, 06:05 PM

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Yes, I always worry someone has a higher flush draw, or someone always has a bigger set, etc.

Don't be weak tight, hero's hand my look bad, but on the turn, it's got mucho equity.

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Do you often, if ever, devalue your flush outs if you are not drawing to the nuts? This is a 4-handed pot, meaning less suited trash is out and about than if the pot were 6- or 7-handed.

TheHip41

12-16-2005, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I always worry someone has a higher flush draw, or someone always has a bigger set, etc.

Don't be weak tight, hero's hand my look bad, but on the turn, it's got mucho equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you often, if ever, devalue your flush outs if you are not drawing to the nuts? This is a 4-handed pot, meaning less suited trash is out and about than if the pot were 6- or 7-handed.

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Not really, I don't worry about flush over flush, because it doesn't happen that often. Do you worry when you limp with 44 after 5 limpers what will happen if you flop an underset?

Yes, there was some action on the flop, but that doesn't mean someone has a higher flush. If you river a flush, and you bet, and a new player raises, then it's call down time. Poker happens, and if someon has a bigger flush, so be it.

pudley4

12-16-2005, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 folds, CO bets, Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a hand with a question? Or is it an instructional hand for newer players? Either way, it's played perfectly.

12-16-2005, 07:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a hand with a question? Or is it an instructional hand for newer players? Either way, it's played perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain my preflop play, please?

Harv72b

12-16-2005, 08:03 PM

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My point is that the implied odds for calling one small bet and then an additional small bet are identical; however, to call one small bet and pay twice that when it comes back to you is different.

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The implied odds change greatly when there is a raise behind you, because it is far more likely that you will get action postflop than if it had been an unraised pot. To give an example:

Same hand, you complete, BB checks. Flop comes K72r. You lead out for value, to protect your vulnerable bottom two pair, and because you can't expect anyone else to bet it, and...everyone folds.

Same hand, with BB raising behind you. The pot is now twice as big, meaning that your opponents will be more likely to stay in with weaker hands/draws (they are getting better pot odds postflop). Same K72r flop, you check, BB bets as expected, to be fair we'll say all the limpers fold again (I think it's more likely someone with 55 calls after the raise, but we'll keep it simple), you check/raise, BB 3-bets with his AK or AA or whatever, you call. Turn comes an 8, you check/raise again. BB calls down.

In the first scenario, when you were depending on at least one of your opponents flopping a hand or draw at the same time you flopped a hand or draw and their hand or draw being weaker than yours...you gained zero bets postflop. In the second scenario, when you already know that at least one player has a hand he'll be seeing the turn at least with, you hit your big hand and gained 4.5 BBs postflop.

Yes, those are pretty much best case/worst case scenarios, but it illustrates the point.

It is incorrect to call 3 bets cold with 55 in the other hand because it is three bets (not one), there's the chance of it being capped behind you (not the case here), and Hero has far fewer "outs" (more accurately, favorable boards) which will win the hand for him. Or to look at it another way, if you had completed here, BB had raised, and the first limper had then reraised, you would not have been calling 2 more bets because your hand did not justify it and you run the risk of having to put in yet another bet when BB caps.