Is Bush a Conservative

[Andrew Fletcher]

Depending on their mood, my conservative friends love to bestow and/or revoke the conservative label upon George W. Bush. Now we learn that the Bush Administration authorized apparently illigeal programs to spy on the American people.

Is Bush still a conservative this morning? It is conservative to spy on Americans and completely ignore the bill of rights?

[BCPVP]

Bush is conservative, but not a conservative.

Bush is a disgrace to the conservative label. Barry Goldwater is rolling over in his grave.

[Andrew Fletcher]

Can you please point me to any elected officals who are real conservatives?

If you can't, can you point me to any think tank/policy organization that is conservative?

Actually, can you point me to a working definition of conservatism that you guys all agree on?

[tylerdurden]

What difference does it make? Does it matter if a guy is named "Jack" or "John" when he's steping on your face with his jackboot?

[BCPVP]

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Can you please point me to any elected officals who are real conservatives?

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My own representative, Mark Green, is pretty conservative.

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If you can't, can you point me to any think tank/policy organization that is conservative?

[/ QUOTE ]
AEI, Heritage Foundation, Tax Foundation, EPPC, ACU, Federalist Society...there are many. Is this a serious question?

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Actually, can you point me to a working definition of conservatism that you guys all agree on?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is impossible. Can you point me to a working definition of liberalism that all of "you" (those who call themselves liberals) agree on? Good luck.

[tripp0807]

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Can you please point me to any elected officals who are real conservatives?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Rick Santorum, the Republican Senator from PA (who, incidentally, may not be around too much longer with Bob Casey, Jr. running for his spot) would qualify.

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If you can't, can you point me to any think tank/policy organization that is conservative?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty good list above.

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Actually, can you point me to a working definition of conservatism that you guys all agree on?

[/ QUOTE ]

It used to be about small government and personal responsibility, but I'm not too sure anymore...

[sweetjazz]

The term 'conservative' is a complicated label. Bush's version of conservatism is very different than previous notions of conservatism. Bush believes in the involvement of the federal government at levels much higher than most conservatives have in the past. It would be fair, I believe, to say that Bush is not a fiscal conservative (even though he's made statements to the contrary...his actions speak louder than his rhetoric here in my opinion).

On the other hand, Bush can accurately be labeled as a social conservative. The basic values and priorities on social issues that he has are what lead working class conservatives to support him.

I don't think the fact that the term 'conservative' is in some ways accurate and in some ways inaccurate to describe George W. Bush is any more problematic than the term 'liberal' is in some ways accurate and in some ways inaccurate to describe Hillary Clinton.

Given how much Bush has had to deal with, it would be shocking if all of his decisions could be simply boxholed into a single ideology or philosophy.

[Andrew Fletcher]

NH, sir.

[Andrew Fletcher]

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Can you point me to a working definition of liberalism that all of "you" (those who call themselves liberals) agree on? Good luck.

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Yes.

Liberalism is a public philosophy that demands citizens think of themselves as members of a national community committed to greatness. Instead of understanding liberalism as a series of policy plans generated by policy wonks or activists, I think liberalism is a humanist project committed to pushing people to think beyond the interests of the self. Liberalism demands that citizens think of public purposes and improve the quality of collectively shared resources. (paraphrased from When America Was Great: The Fighting Faith of Postwar Liberalism.)

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Liberalism is a public philosophy that demands citizens think of themselves as members of a national community committed to greatness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that was Marxism

[Andrew Fletcher]

Oh, zing!

I think modern day conservatism is much closer to Marxism than liberalism. Both communists and conservatives are sure they have the correct answer and believe the world is a awful place where the rule of force is the only way to keep people in line.

Personally, that is not the kind of world I want to live in.

[Beer and Pizza]

Bush hates white people. He sent that hurricane to New Orleans which disproportiionately killed white people.

How can we keep this obvious racist in office?

By the way, this was mentioned last night in the thread that got locked, the second or third thread about "liberals" that has been locked recently. Why wasn't this thread about conservatives treated the same way? I guess only threads about the negative aspects of liberalism deserve locking.

I find that a lot of people really have no idea of what the words conservative and liberal actually mean. Don't be distorted by what people say they are either. In politics you can't say person A is conservative, person B is liberal and neccesarily be able to judge what they actually believe in. A British conservative is likely to be far more leftwing and liberal than your average US republican for example. By European standards there is little social democracy preached let alone socialism in the US. The democrats if they were to stand for elections in Britain would probably have to put themselves to the right of our conservative party.

[ QUOTE ]
Is Bush still a conservative this morning? It is conservative to spy on Americans and completely ignore the bill of rights?

[/ QUOTE ]
Conservative doesn't come into it at all. It is authoritarian , and the sort of policy that comes from those who do not trust their own people. Authoritarianism can come from the left or right. The natural place for them to end up, if allowed by a countrys political system, is as a dictator. Of course most democracy's have seperation of powers, but I have seen exmples recently both in Britain and the US of moves by those in power to undermine this important principle.

[BCPVP]

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Can you point me to a working definition of liberalism that all of "you" (those who call themselves liberals) agree on? Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Liberalism is a public philosophy that demands citizens think of themselves as members of a national community committed to greatness. Instead of understanding liberalism as a series of policy plans generated by policy wonks or activists, I think liberalism is a humanist project committed to pushing people to think beyond the interests of the self. Liberalism demands that citizens think of public purposes and improve the quality of collectively shared resources. (paraphrased from When America Was Great: The Fighting Faith of Postwar Liberalism.)

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All liberals will agree exactly with your definition? I highly doubt it.

[Andrew Fletcher]

It is a conspiracy designed to destroy Christmas. Even 2+2 is in on the war against the most powerful political movement in America.

[Andrew Fletcher]

I think most people don't really know what liberalism is. Did John Kerry define himself as a liberal? No. Other people claimed he was a liberal and then defined it for him.

[tolbiny]

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Bush is a disgrace

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[XxGodJrxX]

[ QUOTE ]

Liberalism is a public philosophy that demands citizens think of themselves as members of a national community committed to greatness. Instead of understanding liberalism as a series of policy plans generated by policy wonks or activists, I think liberalism is a humanist project committed to pushing people to think beyond the interests of the self. Liberalism demands that citizens think of public purposes and improve the quality of collectively shared resources. (paraphrased from When America Was Great: The Fighting Faith of Postwar Liberalism.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I HIGHLY disagree with this definition of liberalism, on every level imaginable. The closest thing that comes to this definition is Communism, fascism, and possibly some theocracies, and only in theory since no person can reasonably be expected to care about the collective more than themselves (at least in my opinion).

I thought we went through this on the "What is a Liberal" thread Waxie. The focus of liberalism is less government so as to increase personal liberties. Everybody is self-interested, and that includes Al Franken, Bill O'Reily, and everybody in between.

This quote is absurd, and obviously written in such a way to provoke a positive response to "Liberalism".

By the ways, I am a liberal; although I try to be as objective as I can on these kinds of matters.

[BCPVP]

Well waxie, it looks like your definition failed.

[HtotheNootch]

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Can you please point me to any elected officals who are real conservatives?

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The Great Ron Paul of Texas.

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[ QUOTE ]
Can you please point me to any elected officals who are real conservatives?

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The Great Ron Paul of Texas.

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I've heard Ron Paul considers himself to be a libertarian.

[Andrew Fletcher]

A world where people only care about themselves does not sound like the kind of place that I want to live in. Think about applying that idea to your own life. Do you only do what is in your own self-interest, at all times? Somehow I doubt it. I don't understand why this sort of idea would never apply to micro social structures but somehow applies to marco social structures.

[Andrew Fletcher]

Yes, a few people posting on 2+2 have clearly demonstrated that liberalism is actually people trying to push gay marriage and outlaw private property. I surrender. Do you have Ann Coulter's number? I have the names of some collaberators I would like to turn in.

[XxGodJrxX]

I've done things before that weren't in my best self-interests. Those things were called "mistakes". Look around you man, the concept of "me" makes the world go round. Name anything you want, and I will show you why people do it because they feel it is in their own self-interests.

[WillMagic]

It's funny how the meaning of liberalism has changed over the years. At the beginning of the twentieth century, being a liberal meant favoring laissez-faire economic policies and personal choice...the basic elements of liberty. But the socialists co-opted the word liberal and applied it to their economic policies, and suddenly laissez-faire became a conservative policy.

Will