20-40: Clark keeps raising you

[Clarkmeister]

Please read slowly as there are questions at different points in the hand and I'd love to see people's thoughts before they see the subsequent action.

Loose Aggressive (i.e. typical) Mirage 20-40 game. An average hand is 3 players for 3 bets.

Your are a slightly overaggressive (particularly headsup) player and see that Clark kid who you think is a bit loose and aggressive raise UTG. You are UTG +2 and decide to cold call with AsQc, likely with the intention of raising almost any flop bet. MP coldcalls, both blinds come along and 5 take the flop for 5BBs.

Flop comes Ac Qd 3h. Checked to Clarkmeister who bets. You hesitate and raise and everyone folds back to Clarkmeister who now 3-bets.

Question #1: Do you call or 4 bet?













You decide to 4 bet. Clarkmeister now 5 bets you.

Question #2: What's your plan for the rest of the hand? Question #3: What are you tentatiely putting Clarkmeister on?
















You call. The turn is an ugly Kc making the board [Ac Qd 3h Kc].

Clarkmeister bets.

Question #4: Raise, call, or fold?

[J.A.Sucker]

Answer #0: With AQo and an UTG raiser (and me in EP) I would usually fold. Sometimes, if he's a little loose, I will 3 bet. I will not cold-call preflop.

Answer #1: I call. Going to raise the turn.

Answer #3: I am putting Clark on AK or AQ. He has an outside chance of a set, QQ, but not so likely, since it's mathematically not so good, plus I think he'd not be so fast to bet out the flop, since Clark is ready for me to raise him, as I garnered from the intro section.

Answer #2: I will call the hand down, since I am either way ahead, tied, or way behind. I'll let that pesky Clark throw his money away /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Answer #4: I would raise the turn. I've gotta see the showdown since the pot's so damned big. If reraised, I'll dump it. I might as well take a stab at the pot, 'cause Clark has to put me on a hand like AK/AQ, and now he may fold. At least, I'll get a free showdown, unless Clark has me beaten every way since Friday.

These are just my opinions, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[Vehn]

Answer #4: I would raise the turn. I've gotta see the showdown since the pot's so damned big. If reraised, I'll dump it.

There's times to do this but this is not one. You are almost certain to be reraised and you have outs against AK. If you're going to showdown just call.

[Sooga]

I'd either put Clarky on AhKh or maybe pocket 3's.

After the King falls, I'm in call down mode, tho I'd be basically making 2 crying calls in a row.

[Ulysses]

Question #1: Do you call or 4 bet?
Call, planning to raise the turn.

Question #2: What's your plan for the rest of the hand?
Raise the turn unless a King comes. If re-raised, call down.

Question #3: What are you tentatiely putting Clarkmeister on?
After the flop 3-bet, AK. Though he may have something bigger like QQ or something smaller like AJs. If I 4-bet and get 5-bet on the flop, I'm putting him on AK or better.

Question #4: Raise, call, or fold?
Call.

[Ray Zee]

somewhere around the four or five bet flop i figure i am beat or its a split. so i will call it down and hope for a four card straight on board and try for a bluff if it seems smart.

[andyfox]

Question #1: I 4-bet.

Question #2: I raise Clark again here pre-flop. I'll bet whenever Clark checks from hereonin and call whenever he bets. If an Ace or Queen ever comes, I'm raising once. If a King comes, yecch.

Question #3: A-K

Question #4: Reminds me of the hand where I had K-Q and an Ace came on the turn. I'm probably calling him down here, though, since I think he's loose and aggressive.

This is why you don't call an UTG raiser for two bets with A-Q or K-Q.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Clarkmeister,

I'll cut and paste and answer in pieces.

You wrote: "Loose Aggressive (i.e. typical) Mirage 20-40 game. An average hand is 3 players for 3 bets."

This sounds like tight aggressive. Loose Aggressive is typically 4 to 6 players for 2.5 to 3.5 bets to my way of thinking /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

"Your are a slightly overaggressive (particularly headsup) player and see that Clark kid who you think is a bit loose and aggressive raise UTG. You are UTG +2 and decide to cold call with AsQc, likely with the intention of raising almost any flop bet. MP coldcalls, both blinds come along and 5 take the flop for 5BBs.

Bad plan. Cold calling a decent players UTG raise with players yet to act with AQ offsuit is one of the worse plays half decent players make. He/you (not Clarkmeister but the other guy) should fold.

"Flop comes Ac Qd 3h. Checked to Clarkmeister who bets. You hesitate and raise and everyone folds back to Clarkmeister who now 3-bets.

Question #1: Do you call or 4 bet?

You should probably four bet now. Clarkmeister will probably make it five bets and lead the turn with a hand such as AK and AQ. Those are his most likely holdings (eight combinations or AK and four of AQ) and he would likely play it hard from the get go. AA and QQ represent only two combinations, allthough I think Clarkmeister would play his sets just as hard out of postion.

Clarkmeisters epic, which I now realize is written in the same tense and perhaps style as Jay McInerey's "Bright Lights, Big City", continues: "You decide to 4 bet. Clarkmeister now 5 bets you."

Question #2: What's your plan for the rest of the hand?

Question #3: What are you tentatiely putting Clarkmeister on?"

I'd have put question #3 ahead of question #2. I'd put Clarkmeister on AK as noted above. But a set of queens or aces is possible or the same AQ I'm holding. Since AK is about four times more likely than a set, I'd call the five bets on the flop and let Clarkmeister lead into me on the turn. I'd raise the turn. That should slow Clarkmeister down if he holds AK. But Clarkmeister would three bet the turn with AQ and his big sets so I'd have to call the turn and river given the fact that he four bets his big sets and perhaps AQ and the tied hand AQ is only twice as likely as a big set.

"You call. The turn is an ugly Kc making the board [Ac Qd 3h Kc].

Clarkmeister bets.

Question #4: Raise, call, or fold?"

Clarkmeister bets his AQ's, his AK's, and his sets. He will lay down none to a raise. I'm potstuck now I (no way I can do the math fast enough at the table) so I'd call now and plan to call the river (unless a queen hits, then I raise).

Regards,

Rick

[Tyler Durden]

Question One: I'd call the 3-bet on the flop with the intention of raising the turn if it's a non-scare card.

Question Two: My plan would be to call him down unless I spike a Queen in which case I'd raise.

Question Three: I'm putting him on AK, AA or QQ.

Question Four: I'd fold and spend the next few hours telling my friends about the great fold I made. Then I'd wake up from my dreamworld and call and lose the hand b/c there's no chance in hell I'm dragging this pot. Next hand.

[Clarkmeister]

"Reminds me of the hand where I had K-Q and an Ace came on the turn. "

Your recent KQ post is what reminded me of this hand.

[David Sklansky]

is realizing that the preflop call is bad and that a turn fold would be wrong. In poker the big mistakes are loose early calls, bad folds late in headup pots, and neglecting to make raises multiway, to knock players out. Discussions as to how to play good but not great hands in headup situations may be interesting but have little to do with getting the money.

[elysium]

hi clark
1) four bet. here you want to tie your opponent to the pot.
2) when clark five bets, he could have AK to a set. you'll bet if he checks and call if he bets. that pretty much answers it.
sometimes when tieing an opponent to the pot, we wind up tied too.

[anatta]

I would just call you down. I'm not happy, but the pots too big. On the bright side, I'm in a great game. I only have to pay three bets to see the flop, lots of loose three way action!! Clark is on my right. Sweet. I'll just keep on cold calling his raises...

[Clarkmeister]

Thanks for the great responses. From the other perspective:

The game is very aggressive and loose. I'm not raising anything but AK, AQ, AA-TT UTG here. I may even limp with the TT. I doubt I'd ever even make a "variation" raise with this texture, so 33 is out of the question. So his preflop coldcall is pretty awful, but typical of most regular locals. I can only surmise that he inteneded on raising me no matter what on the flop simply because its a common play. (Another common play is to coldcall with AK in the SB and checkraise any flop, they love that one).

So I bet and Local raises. He's got an ace. He may be overaggressive but there are 3 people behind him. AJs at a minimum. When I 3-bet and he 4-bets, he's got AQ almost certainly, maybe AK. He should know that I can't possibly put him on anything else. I 5 bet him anyways.

On the turn comes the last card he can want to see if he has AQ, a King. This makes the rest of the hand play pretty straightforward since I don't have to decide whether to checkraise or lead out. I have to make sure I collect my remaining 2BBs from him.

I bet my AA and he called., a backdoor flush 7 came on the river, I bet and he called and my hand was good and he showed his AQ.


I was pretty pissed the king came on the turn since I was put him on AQ. I thought he might just call down so I may have tried to checkraise if a King hadn't come. In light of Andy's recent KQ post, I figured he could at best think he was tied. Heck, I wouldn't have even 5 bet AK on the flop given that board. However, I would have played AQ exactly the same way, which makes his calldown correct and at first I didn't think it was when the king came. Plus, if I have QQ he has 2 outs which helps. I'm not used to thinking its correct to call when "at very best I'm tied".

I'm surprised at all the people who would rather call the 3-bet and raise the turn. Its something I used to do quite a bit, but I'm finding its better to play fast. Not only do they tend to not believe you on the flop, but when you raise the turn, it sets off the sirens and they frequently fold. I'm starting to believe that the "smoothcall the 3 bet when you have position then raise the turn" headsup play is decidedly less preferable to juts dropping the hammer and 4 betting their ass on the flop. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Also, if a king hadn't have come, would anyone have raised the turn despite my 5 bet on the flop? I'm still unsure whether or not I should have led out or checkraised had a king not fallen.

[Clarkmeister]

If he is beat or split (putting me on a set or top 2), there is no way I am folding any of those hands headsup with a 4 straight on board.

Against him at least.

Against Ray Zee I may fold since Tommy has informed me you only play one hand per day and always have the nut.

[Vehn]

I'm starting to believe that the "smoothcall the 3 bet when you have position then raise the turn" headsup play is decidedly less preferable to juts dropping the hammer and 4 betting their ass on the flop.

I still do the former a lot, maybe even most of the time, usually because even though they know they're behind at this point, they will almost always call the turn raise as they figure they have 3 or 5 outs and then they get pot-too-big-itis and have to pay me off on the river. That's just around here though, I'm sure in Vegas its a different story against the mid limit locals there. I mix it up really, maybe 30% of the time I go to war on the flop - basically depends on what I think of my opponent, the better/more aggressive they are the more likely I am put raises in on the flop as putting in 3+ bets on the flop with position is usually regarded as a sign of weakness frankly. Basically when I stop getting paid when I do the smoothcall 3-bet/raise turn stuff I'll go back to raising more on the flop or even raising the river.

[J.A.Sucker]

OK, maybe I should have made my point more clear. My raise on the turn is because Clark may fold AQ here, fearing that he's drawing about dead. If that is not an option, I'll just call it down. However, looking at my outs to AQ isn't really a consideration, since it's only two after the K comes. Plus, I can't raise those "outs" since I may be drawing dead already, to AA in this case. The only real way I see myself winning this pot is if we both have AQ, and I can get him to fold. If he has the same hand and he calls, we'll check it down on the river and chop the pot. If he has me beat/drawing about dead/totally dead, I'll fold the turn if he 3bets.

[CrackerZack]

I also have taken more to 4+ betting the flop instead of waiting for the turn. If i miss half a bet every now and then its better than having him fold on the turn and river and missing either a full bet or more. When you're first to act also, you have to make sure the person will bet.

For the other questions, I would've raised the turn if the K hadn't come even with the 5-bet as by reading your posts I believe you would make this move with AK with or without a backdoor flush draw. You said in your results you wouldn't have so I would've been incorrect in my read of you, but I would've acted on it. I would've called the 3-bet and river unless the river was an A (obviously impossible) in which I would raise the river. I wouldn't raise the river if a Q fell.

[skp]

"I'm surprised at all the people who would rather call the 3-bet and raise the turn. Its something I used to do quite a bit, but I'm finding its better to play fast. Not only do they tend to not believe you on the flop, but when you raise the turn, it sets off the sirens and they frequently fold. I'm starting to believe that the "smoothcall the 3 bet when you have position then raise the turn" headsup play is decidedly less preferable to juts dropping the hammer and 4 betting their ass on the flop. Anyone have any thoughts on this?"

I tend to fast slowplay i.e raise the flop but not 4 bet waiting instead to lower the hammer on the turn. As Vehn says, they just about never fold even though the "sirens have been set off" and if they do fold, well, you can then, in theory, do the same thing with a much weaker hand or draw at a later point when you do want them to fold.

[Dynasty]

My raise on the turn is because Clark may fold AQ here

What fantasy world are you living in?

[J.A.Sucker]

If I was this guy, and I knew Clark, then I would know that he wouldn't ever fold, and would call down. If it was some random player, though, who I viewed as a bit overaggressive but maybe not such a good player, then this raise makes sense, since he may fold, as horrible of a play as this is. I'm saying that my chance of winning this pot outright is limited to the other guy folding, which he may do if he isn't such a good player.

Of course, with Clark, then fuggedabout it. Then again, I'd never of played the AQo in the first place, as my original post says.

Sucker.

[Dynasty]

I don't think I've met a player who would fold AQ on that board.

[coolhandkuhn]

some 'bolivian marching powder' might be the only thing causing Clark to fold once the board reads A-Q-3-K given the way the hand has played out so far, so I can't see the benefit of a turn raise, given that my opinion of clark's play is loose aggressive (from Clark's orig. post, I personally know nothing of his play), as it won't be able to get me to a free showdown, and at best I am splitting the pot. The turn would be a good time to practice making a tough laydown. That said, I check/call all the way home, b/c I'm weak and that's what weak players do when they know their hand is no good, but can't bring themselves to fold flopped top two.

[rtrombone]

There's a time and a place for both plays (4-betting at the flop and calling the 3-bet then raising the turn). It depends on what exactly you put your opponent on.

In this particular hand, though, how can calling the flop 3-bet be wrong? The bettor likely has AK. He's going to bet the turn. Most players are going to call the turn raise and river bet with TPTK, aren't they? Especially heads up.

I think if you put your opponent on TPTK or better, calling a flop 3-bet and raising the turn is the preferable play. Even more so if your opponent knows you're capable of doing this as a semi-bluff or bluff.

[Ed Miller]

I'm surprised at all the people who would rather call the 3-bet and raise the turn. Its something I used to do quite a bit, but I'm finding its better to play fast. Not only do they tend to not believe you on the flop, but when you raise the turn, it sets off the sirens and they frequently fold. I'm starting to believe that the "smoothcall the 3 bet when you have position then raise the turn" headsup play is decidedly less preferable to juts dropping the hammer and 4 betting their ass on the flop. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My opinion on this has changed a lot too. Basically, I noticed that I got really annoyed when my opponents wouldn't stop raising on the flop, so I started doing that instead of waiting for the turn, which I usually did. It is true, no one ever believes I have a hand on the flop.

[M.B.E.]

"<font color="purple">Also, if a king hadn't have come, would anyone have raised the turn despite my 5 bet on the flop? I'm still unsure whether or not I should have led out or checkraised had a king not fallen.</font color>"

Yes, in the position of your opponent with AQ, I would have raised the turn if you bet out, notwithstanding your five-bet on the flop.

[SoBeDude]

Of course, with Clark, then fuggedabout it. Then again, I'd never of played the AQo in the first place, as my original post says.

I think I'd play AQ there approximately 100% of the time. Please explain to me why that is wrong. Is it just because clark is so tight with his UTG raises?

-Scott

[Pot-A]

What do you think Clark could raise with UTG that wouldn't fare well against AQo? Also, with the rest of the field behind you there's an elevated risk somebody else might have a big hand.

[ResidentParanoid]

I'm starting to believe that the "smoothcall the 3 bet when you have position then raise the turn" headsup play is decidedly less preferable to juts dropping the hammer and 4 betting their ass on the flop. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I have come to prefer the 4-bet-on-the-flop play for a large percentage of the time. Not only is it the "weaker" play than wait-for-the-turn-raise, but AQ-roadkill-dude got a little information from your 5-bet.

[Rushmore]

...Bright Lights, Big City.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Regarding Bright Lights, Big City, the one thing I remember and learned from the book was to be extra careful not to leave splahmarks on my pants whenr taking a leak. This is especially true if you are wearing nice slacks but probably doesn't matter much with jeans /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

~ Rick

[bad beetz]

when I know I have the best hand I like to get down to business on the flop for two reasons:

1. people have a tough time not just "calling down" when you went a ton of bets on the flop. when you raise they turn they suddenly believe things and fold

2. SBs on the flop mean very little to people and they will put lots on them in before they realize it's more than a turn raise. the flop is for "feeling," and allot of people will dump lots of small bets in there.

here's an example:

I'm headsup with a regular normal guy. He flops two pair on a three flush board and I flop a flush.

I bet, he raises, i three bet, he four bets, i five bet, he calls the next three streets = 4.5 BB. there's no opportunity for him to fold.

If I play it the way he would, it would go, bet, raise, call, checkraise, call = 4 BB. he may even fold to the check-raise.

[M.B.E.]

<font color="purple">I think I'd play AQ there approximately 100% of the time. Please explain to me why that is wrong. Is it just because clark is so tight with his UTG raises?</font color>

No -- you should fold AQo against any early-position raiser, except someone who would raise with just about any two cards. The reason is this: AQo is a major underdog against AA, KK, QQ, and AK; it's a medium underdog against JJ and TT, and a small underdog against 99 and smaller pocket pairs.
Many players will raise UTG with only these hands (and AQ), which means that there's no chance at all you're ahead. Even if it's a player who will raise UTG with AJ and AT, as well as AK, AQ and big pocket pairs, the chance you're ahead is too small. Even if the UTG raiser is much looser than average in his UTG raises, your AQo is negative EV.

The reason this confuses a lot of otherwise good players is that AQo is quite a good hand if no one else has raised. It's counterintuitive that you can raise limpers with AQo but if someone ahead of you has raised you can't even call.

[Mikey]

" I'm starting to believe that the "smoothcall the 3 bet when you have position then raise the turn" headsup play is decidedly less preferable to just dropping the hammer and 4 betting their ass on the flop. Anyone have any thoughts on this?"

I found that psychologically when I'm involved in a hand and there are multiple bets in on the flop I used to find myself playing out the hand to the river , also it is rather annoying I think to poker players in general when they keep getting reraised on the flop and then have a mental breakdown on the turn and river when you keep betting and they keep calling and can't get away from there hand.

Forget the checkraises, I believe if your opponnent opens himself to another bet then you should reraise him right then and there, especially on a flop like this.
I don't like checkraising unless it's perfect.

Also if you opponnent is (weaktight) and a King falls on the turn or a Ten falls on the turn, or another 3 falls on the turn. Then you run the possibility of the checkraise failing on the turn and then you bet the river only to get called and miss some bets.

"dropping the hammer and 4 betting their ass on the flop"

-there you go Clarky, bring some EMOTION to this game!!

[Louie Landale]

AQ is a pretty dog hand early against a sensibly tight UTG raiser, not to mention THIS particular UTG raiser is GOING to outplay you after the flop, not to mention a table of somewhat loose but aggressive players. Yup, lets call with a bad hand in bad position, sandwhiched, inviting disaster, figuring to play "tricky" later. If you flop an A and a Q with no K nor flush, then you REALLY got'em and you can confidently go 5-bets on the flop.

Doh!

God made premium hands for raising UTG. You-know-who made trouble hands for CALLING tight early raises. There is a really good reason that unsuited non-paired non-AK hands are called "trouble". Really, there is.

Fold. Instead of worrying about the fold invest these precious moments calling for Cocktails and hope a couple three players order a drink.

Its hard to describe the thought process that would allow a player to call with AQ in that spot, then somehow throw away As+Qs later.

- Louie

[Mikey]

I would.

HA HA HA