60k in 60 days, days 1 and 2

[Dave Mac]

well first per the other thread, i don't give a flying [censored] what forum it is in. i almost posted here to start, but honestly i was pretty pissed having my post/my presence on the forum pushed aside, and i was going to say some things. however, it seems the that was not josh's intentions and so whatever, no foul i guess. thanks to all the people i know/have played with for saying something tho.

on to the quest. well i guess the next matter was i do intend to post updates, i just was not sure if there would be any interest in reading them. it seems like there is so i will. i was going to give a bunch of background in here but i think i will save it for the next update, b/c i am pretty tierd and don't want to half ass it or go though the info half way.

so anyways, the first two days were not bad. i have played 2-3k hands in a day many times before so i was not conerned about getting used to playing a lot of hands in a day or playing a long session. but i usaully play twice a day once in the morning or afternoon and once at night. well tonight and yesterday i did not get to put in that first session and so i played 2k hands str8 though both nights, which kinda sucked. i did feel as crisp or sharp at the end of either session so i am going to really try to break it up from now on.

i didn't really have any intesting hands from day one, but just a general comment -- these guys suck. a lot. i know as soon as i say that i won't win again but the level of pay was totally horrible. i mean i am just amazed at how bad they play. i used to play these games, and then i moved on and now coming back i just think wow, this is amazing.

today i ran pretty bad, just the usual, lots of river 3 outters and turned two pair, the usaul bs. but i had 1 semi interesting hand that adresses a point i am trying to work on.

2nd hand at a table i get A7o in the sb, folded to me i raise and the BB calls.

flop is 568r
i bet he raises i call.

turn is a Q
i check, call.

River is a K
I check, call.

I am really not sure about the river. i am getting about 7-1 to call, so he only has to have a 7 or whatever a little of the time for the call to be right, but i am not sure. it may also be one of those it is so close it doesn't matter spots, but i am not sure. but that brings me to a major issue i am trying to work on, not calling down with A hi. I am better about it right now but a few months ago I found myself calling down with A hi all the time and in some bad spots. it comes from playing very short handed on ub and getting into this rytham of going to the river with any showdownable hand, which is prolly a mistake as well, but that is a different game and topic. however, there are also lots of spots where people are obv. taking shots at you or could be and so you need to call down there, and i don't want to miss those spots or become weak. so that is one of my main thrusts for the challegen, to work on that.

anouther breif issue, the number of tables, i play between 4 and 6 and you get so many more hands in with 6 tables but i really don't think i play quite as well and i think it fries my brain faster, so i am not sure what i want to do. you guys have any thougths on the number of tables if i am going to be playing a lot everyday for the next two months? i know it is kinda an indiv. thing but any thought would be helpful.

anyways i will stop rambling. these are the stats so far

Day 1: 1925 hands +1633
Day 2: 1806 hands -456

so i am running behind on hands and money. so i am going to try to get 3000 hands in tommrow to work on both and give me some cusion for the weekend.
dave

[ggbman]

As per the hand you include, if you want to invest a bet on this river, i would donk it. I think the value of getting hands like 44, 57, 67 to incorrectly fold is more valuable than inducing a bluff from a naked 7. You might also run into a "solid player who doesnt pay off" who will fold an 8 from time to time. Best of luck on your quest.

Gabe

[Sponger15SB]

Yes. Work on winning more money. You suck at that.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Dave Mac]

do you really think anyone will fold any of those hands? i don't think i have seen anyone fold a pair on the river for one bet in like, ever. i mean i may be wrong but i just don't see it happening, am i missing something?
dave

[ggbman]

In all honesty dave, i think you need to remember you are playing 10-20 and not 150-300. These players think playing is good is folding when they are "clearly beat because what would you donk on this river that you raised PF that doesnt beat 67" whereas you are used to playing against players who know how wide your range is and autocall any pair on the river. Just food for thought... ( i dont get that saying /images/graemlins/confused.gif)

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
In all honesty dave, i think you need to remember you are playing 10-20 and not 150-300. These players think playing is good is folding when they are "clearly beat because what would you donk on this river that you raised PF that doesnt beat 67" whereas you are used to playing against players who know how wide your range is and autocall any pair on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
totally disagree...
the players in the PP10/20 FVCKIGN SUCK... they are incredibly horrible. the majority of them will call river w/ A2.

[ggbman]

In some cases, the fact that they is because they make bad folds not understanding their hand strength relative to the baord IMO. I'm saying this unequivocally, but i'm pretty sure my line is worth thinking about.

[SA125]

Dave, just wanted to say that I've been struggling recently online and your challenge post has helped me out. I know it's not your goal, but I'm making a commitment to dropping down and playing 50K hands just to straighten out any leaks and stay focused. It sucks playing below levels you're used to and setting up a challenge to do so makes it easier to stick with.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In all honesty dave, i think you need to remember you are playing 10-20 and not 150-300. These players think playing is good is folding when they are "clearly beat because what would you donk on this river that you raised PF that doesnt beat 67" whereas you are used to playing against players who know how wide your range is and autocall any pair on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
totally disagree...
the players in the PP10/20 FVCKIGN SUCK... they are incredibly horrible. the majority of them will call river w/ A2.

[/ QUOTE ]

i played 10/20 for a couple of weeks in november and in about 10k hands i was called by 3 high (22 on double paired board), 9 high on a paired board, and 7 high on an unpaired board. neither of the latter two were playing the board

its a great game to go back to to regroup

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
As per the hand you include, if you want to invest a bet on this river, i would donk it. I think the value of getting hands like 44, 57, 67 to incorrectly fold is more valuable than inducing a bluff from a naked 7. You might also run into a "solid player who doesnt pay off" who will fold an 8 from time to time. Best of luck on your quest.

Gabe

[/ QUOTE ]

there is a nearly 0 chance he folds any pair to a donk here. even most 2ers in this game arent folding here.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In all honesty dave, i think you need to remember you are playing 10-20 and not 150-300. These players think playing is good is folding when they are "clearly beat because what would you donk on this river that you raised PF that doesnt beat 67" whereas you are used to playing against players who know how wide your range is and autocall any pair on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
totally disagree...
the players in the PP10/20 FVCKIGN SUCK... they are incredibly horrible. the majority of them will call river w/ A2.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. he is getting called by acehihg if he bets here by 90% of the players in the game.

[Dave Mac]

i am glad that i could help in some way. it is really easy for poker to get you [censored] up in someway and it does suck and is hard to put the ego aside and short yourself/poker out. but it is necessary, all i can say is i will never make the same mistakes again, and i will try to learn from all of this in some way. good luck and i hope everything works out, i am sure it will.
dave

[Dave Mac]

i have to agree with you flawless, no over is ever folding anyhting ever.....but what do you think about the river call? what if it were an 80 ub game?
dave

[Lmn55d]

i've played a huge amount of hands in this game and I'm pretty sure flawless, Victor and Josh are right that nobody is folding a pair ever

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
anyways i will stop rambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I like it when these things are as long winded as possible when coming from someone of your skill level.

I enjoyed this first post and I'm really interested in your continuing thoughts about the state of the 10/20 6max game.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the value of getting hands like 44, 57, 67 to incorrectly fold is more valuable than inducing a bluff from a naked 7. You might also run into a "solid player who doesnt pay off" who will fold an 8 from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one in the history of Party 10/20 6max has ever folded any of those hands to this river bet.

[sthief09]

i had no clue you would be doing this the way you are. i assumed it would basically be a report of how you did every few days or so. i think that sort of thing belongs here even if you are playing mid-high shorthanded. i also had no idea you switched names but tahts my fault for assuming there wouldnt be a ton of interest there. anyway, if you want to move it back to hush, i would love for it to be there. if not, then im sorry that i came off as a prick (the tone of what i wrote was not how i intended for it to be. ive had a rough few days and have been short tempered in general), and im sorry that i lost the opportunity for this to be there.

[TStoneMBD]

i think the checkcall on that river is a big loser.

i also think checkcalling is far greater than donking because the opponent will often check down a small pair after the scare cards hitting.

I am not endorsing donking the river, but just think about this: how would you know if they're folding a pair, ever? You will only know when they call you with a pair, and it is a logical fallacy to then deduce that they're always calling with any pair.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
i have to agree with you flawless, no over is ever folding anyhting ever.....but what do you think about the river call? what if it were an 80 ub game?
dave

[/ QUOTE ]
ya, in the 80 its quite marginal either way, but i dont like the call, only cause those playrs are smart enough to VB the riv w/ a small pair... when un unknown 10/20 continues player betting after QK hits the board, suspicioun is warranted... also those guys make nonstop retarded bluffs... just ridiculous stuff. i think your play is fine here...

[Dave Mac]

no biggie i understand, i went through some of the same [censored] this spring and i wouldn't even have appoligized if i was in your shoes, so don't worry. as for the quest and all the following posts it is up to you. i don't care if it is here and i don't care if it is there. i orginally put it in sh b/c i was not sure if there would be any real interest and i was not sure if most of the interest would be from sh'ers. so it is your perogative, and totally up to you, you want to move it back go for it, you want to leave it here thats cool. i really don't care one way or the other.
thanks
dave

[Dave Mac]

i will post more of the state/life of the 10-20 6 max, but i think, hopeuflly, it is fine for a while to come, i honestly see that game being about the same forever. it is a small mid stake game where action players get to donkt it up and not loose too much. and the player base is so big, and most of the peopel seem to be so bad that i can't see it being broken by 99.9% of the players in that game. but i am not sure and i don't want to say anyhting too denifiniatvly, but i think it should be good for quite a while.
dave

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
how would you know if they're folding a pair, ever?

[/ QUOTE ]


exactly. When your opponent DO fold a pair or over-cards or whatever...how the hell do you know what they're folding in the first place??

I'm not playing the 10/20 6-max game (I'm assuming he's on Party).
I've been playing some 3/6 6-max on a different site and have sometimes had my opponents SHOWN me folded hands like 33 or UI AK while I was just semi-bluffing with a draw (like his A7).
I'm not saying that my play is correct (my recent results indicate that my overall play is anything BUT correct) but it DOES happen.

I know the 10/20 game plays pretty aggressively...but surely there are some weak-passives on there with a low WtSD% who are capable of folding a low pair to a donk-bet in this spot.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the value of getting hands like 44, 57, 67 to incorrectly fold is more valuable than inducing a bluff from a naked 7. You might also run into a "solid player who doesnt pay off" who will fold an 8 from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one in the history of Party 10/20 6max has ever folded any of those hands to this river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which against how wide Dave's range is, is not really a mistake imo. Of course Im sure you were implying in general when obvious that their crap pair or A-high is beaten.

Either way Im pretty sure this isnt a c/c and more along the lines of c/f unless u have a read. Some of the guys will be relentless with their betting some will get sheepish with both the K and Q on board.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
When your opponent DO fold a pair or over-cards or whatever...how the hell do you know what they're folding in the first place??

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen what they don't fold.