"solid" players have NO concept of bubble play

[1C5]

Have played with villian before. Seemed solid until this. (Party $22).

Small stack is all in next hand with blinds and this guy makes a call like this.

PS, NOT a bad beat post, still got 1st place.

Just blows my mind.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t115)
Hero (t3745)
SB (t955)
BB (t3185)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3745 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t855 (All-In), <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t4900) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t4900) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t4900) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t4900

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kh 9d (one pair, sixes).
SB has 5h 5s (two pair, sixes and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins t2790. SB wins t2110. </font>

[GtrHtr]

I fold this PF based on BB's and UTG's stacks. I'd rather deal with him on my own terms and not in pushbot mode.

[SammyKid11]

Well, you're missing out on lots of opportunities to pickup chips via bullying if you fold this PF. Also, I don't think OP was asking...he was just demonstrating the lack of basic bubble knowledge by many out there playing 22's.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this PF based on BB's and UTG's stacks. I'd rather deal with him on my own terms and not in pushbot mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Any 2 are getting pushed here. This is a winfall for the hero.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Have played with villian before. Seemed solid until this. (Party $22).

Small stack is all in next hand with blinds and this guy makes a call like this.

PS, NOT a bad beat post, still got 1st place.

Just blows my mind.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t115)
Hero (t3745)
SB (t955)
BB (t3185)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3745 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t855 (All-In), <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t4900) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t4900) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t4900) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t4900

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kh 9d (one pair, sixes).
SB has 5h 5s (two pair, sixes and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins t2790. SB wins t2110. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get the point of posting this. Someone at the 22s sucks at bubble play? Not exactly a revelation. People will call you with any pair when they shouldn't? Okay...those of us who have played more than 20 games could have told you that.

Not to be a dick, but c'mon man. This hand is remarkably unremarkable.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this PF based on BB's and UTG's stacks. I'd rather deal with him on my own terms and not in pushbot mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold this PF based on BB's and UTG's stacks. I'd rather deal with him on my own terms and not in pushbot mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Any 2 are getting pushed here. This is a winfall for the hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be correct, I just don't think a push here with level 6 blinds is that much of a winfall. Now if the stacks were different, I could see it. Granted, the BB is only calling with AA or maybe KK, but I'd much rather push any two on level 7 or higher on the bubble.

Bad push by hero. Why are you risking that many chips on that hand? You aren't a short stack buddy. Stealing is one thing, but why risk being called by the BB?

Calling with a pair certainly isn't the best, but your play isn't top notch either.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad push by hero. Why are you risking that many chips on that hand? You aren't a short stack buddy. Stealing is one thing, but why risk being called by the BB?

Calling with a pair certainly isn't the best, but your play isn't top notch either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moral of the story: OP's claim in the subject line is spot on.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bad push by hero. Why are you risking that many chips on that hand? You aren't a short stack buddy. Stealing is one thing, but why risk being called by the BB?

Calling with a pair certainly isn't the best, but your play isn't top notch either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moral of the story: OP's claim in the subject line is spot on.

[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold this PF based on BB's and UTG's stacks. I'd rather deal with him on my own terms and not in pushbot mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Any 2 are getting pushed here. This is a winfall for the hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be correct, I just don't think a push here with level 6 blinds is that much of a winfall. Now if the stacks were different, I could see it. Granted, the BB is only calling with AA or maybe KK, but I'd much rather push any two on level 7 or higher on the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont like pushing at all either. Id rather take a chance that the BB wont mess with me, and just make it 550-600. Most of the time they won't have the balls with this guy sitting there with 100 chips. Moving allin is very dangerous, you dont know what these guys are capable of.

[FlyWf]

It's always a bad push when you've got 18 BB(and the BB has 15BB). It's especially a bad push when you are against bad players. How does this hand turn out if it's BB who wakes up with 55 or KTo or A3s or any of the other hands they'll idiotically call with? Pretty freaking bad for you.

[BadMongo]

I agree, this is a bad push.

This is NOT proper bubble play - not at the the 22s. People just can't lay down hands at this level. If you do an ICM analysis of this and similar situations (including proper calling ranges for this level) you'll find that a push like this is very -$EV.

You have to adjust your play based on how the other players WILL play, not how they SHOULD play.

[tigerite]

I actually would just raise here like curtains suggests to some amount (well any really) whereby calling an SB push would be a no brainer.

[tigerite]

And anyway, some pushes work out.

PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 7 - 4 players (Converter: PGC (http://client.pokergrader.com))


Chip Counts:
Button: 1620 Chips
SB: 720 Chips
BB: 3040 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 4620 Chips</font>

Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Blinds are 150/300

PreFlop
Hero is All-In, <font color="blue">Button folds</font>
<font color="blue">SB folds</font>, BB is All-In

(2 players) FLOP: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ( Pot Size: 7810 Chips )


(2 players) TURN: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ( Pot Size: 7810 Chips )


(2 players) RIVER: J/images/graemlins/club.gif ( Pot Size: 7810 Chips )


Final Pot:7810 Chips


BB shows:AdAc,a pair of aces

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RoyalLance]

Easy fold. With the 100 chipper to be all in next hand you had no reason to gamble your chip lead when you as SO close to cashing, and in position for a win. You should consider yourself lucky to survive for first IMO.

[tigerite]

Wow, just really. You have no idea about ICM do you?

[Shillx]

Okay well it is easy to say "bad push" or "you are wrong", but you didn't come up with a alternate pushing range here.

The nice thing about pushing every hand is that the caller can't win by picking any strategy. That is not to say that you always win by pushing any 2, but at least the caller is in a -EV spot no matter what he decides to call with.

All pushing ranges have their problems. Yeah you can push 88+/AT+ and be certain that it is +EV no matter what they call with, but those hands don't just fall into your lap. You are going to get run over if you take the "don't make any pushes that could be -EV" road.

There is a lot of math to back up the 100% shove theory. But since you don't seem to like it, what do you suggest we shove here?

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, just really. You have no idea about ICM do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Run the numbers before you jump too quick.

You can't assume the average 22er knows enough to only call with AA/KK ever.

On the uber-tight for 22 player range of TT+,AQs+,AKo this is +.5%. This is not a hugely +EV spot unless you can put the other big stack on a really tight range. Even with SB/BB on a range of AA/KK only this is +.8%. The blinds are too small. There will be much better spots in this tourney if you pass this one up.

[tigerite]

Well the BB won't call with that kind of range, but anyway I already said I wouldn't push here, but folding is surely wrong, raise and play some poker if called/re-raise all-in if SB pushes and BB calls.

[Mr_J]

Your play is correct in theory, but you have to remember to account for the 'idiot factor'. You are basically setting BB up to make a huge mistake that costs both of you bigtime, and all for 300 chips.

[BadMongo]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you suggest we shove here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the point - I'm suggesting you DON'T shove ~19 BBs against a loose calling range.

You have to understand that most of these donkeys don't take a whole lot into consideration when making a call like this. They see pretty cards and don't want to fold them, especially when you've been playing hyper-agressive. Its far better to have him call a normal raise when he does pick up one of those "pretty hands" so you don't put your whole stack at risk.

[raptor517]

if im bb im calling with 3 hands.. QQ KK and AA. the 900 chip stack guy will probably widen to JJ and AK as well. that means, shoving 23o should be quite profitable for you. what is the reason for this post? its a 22. he doesnt know how to play. so what. holla

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what do you suggest we shove here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the point - I'm suggesting you DON'T shove ~19 BBs against a loose calling range.

You have to understand that most of these donkeys don't take a whole lot into consideration when making a call like this. They see pretty cards and don't want to fold them, especially when you've been playing hyper-agressive. Its far better to have him call a normal raise when he does pick up one of those "pretty hands" so you don't put your whole stack at risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost anytime you are on the bubble with 100-200 blinds there has been some very loose play to get there that quickly. Many times this involves someone donking their way to a big stack. To assume that anyone has suddenly learned how to play the bubble even close to correctly is very dangerous.

In this specific hand the best play is to fold because the best possible scenario is that SB and BB get involved with each other. It costs you very little $EV to fold this hand because the blinds are so small. The looseness of the table that got you to the bubble at 100-200 blinds makes it that much more likely that SB and BB do something stupid. Bad players make the most mistakes from the blinds. They don't have to make a mistake here very often at all to offset the small $EV loss from folding.

Not to be results oriented, but if you fold here SB is pushing into the BB right? How often does BB need to call for you to have a hugely +EV situation?

[Mr_J]

But you are not the BB. Some random guy is. He could easily be a moron...

[bawcerelli]

[ QUOTE ]
But you are not the BB. Some random guy is. He could easily be a moron...

[/ QUOTE ]

[FlyWf]

I think this might be a spot for the always ridiculous minraise.