You are welcome to rejoin civilization

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Nice to have you back:

Bush and McCain strike deal (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=A86.I1sz8aFDCKwAcg2s0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)

[jaxmike]

The idea that the prisoners in Iraq are being tortured is so ignorant its almost funny to me. Please talk to Nick Berg about torture before you think making someone wear underwear on their head is a shameful and harmful act.

[BCPVP]

I'm glad Victor Davis Hanson's arguments have won over Bush.

[peritonlogon]

[ QUOTE ]
Victor Davis Hanson

[/ QUOTE ]
He spoke at my college graduation

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Victor Davis Hanson

[/ QUOTE ]
He spoke at my college graduation

[/ QUOTE ]
You're a lucky man. What'd you think?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad Victor Davis Hanson's arguments have won over Bush.


[/ QUOTE ]

Victor Davis Hanson and Michael Ledeen actually seem to understand what is going on in the Middle East, and in the larger picture.

Faster please.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Bush and McCain strike deal (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=A86.I1sz8aFDCKwAcg2s0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)

[/ QUOTE ]

What a sad day. I wonder how many innocent lives will be lost because our laws require us to make terrorists comfortable.

[ QUOTE ]
"We've sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists."

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. The terrorists will do whatever it takes to kill Americans. The United States will not do whatever it takes to protect Americans.

You can catch more flies with broken fingers than you can with honey.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bush and McCain strike deal (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=A86.I1sz8aFDCKwAcg2s0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)

[/ QUOTE ]

What a sad day. I wonder how many innocent lives will be lost because our laws require us to make terrorists comfortable.

[ QUOTE ]
"We've sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists."

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. The terrorists will do whatever it takes to kill Americans. The United States will not do whatever it takes to protect Americans.

You can catch more flies with broken fingers than you can with honey.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that we're better off imprisoning and torturing innocent people than not?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bush and McCain strike deal (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=A86.I1sz8aFDCKwAcg2s0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)

[/ QUOTE ]

What a sad day. I wonder how many innocent lives will be lost because our laws require us to make terrorists comfortable.

[ QUOTE ]
"We've sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists."

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. The terrorists will do whatever it takes to kill Americans. The United States will not do whatever it takes to protect Americans.

You can catch more flies with broken fingers than you can with honey.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I like to hear! But why stop with terrorists? Let's torture our own rapists and murderers. That'll get people to stop raping and murdering. And while we're at it, bank robbers, armed or not. No more bank robberies if they know they're going to get the chinese water torture. And come to think of it, tax cheats. We spend too much damn money chasing down people who cheat on their taxes. Let's attach electrodes to their nipples. And god damn speeders too. We could reduce insurance premiums here in New Jersey if everyone would slow down. And what better way to make that happen than by chopping off a finger or two.

[peritonlogon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bush and McCain strike deal (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=A86.I1sz8aFDCKwAcg2s0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)

[/ QUOTE ]

What a sad day. I wonder how many innocent lives will be lost because our laws require us to make terrorists comfortable.

[ QUOTE ]
"We've sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists."

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. The terrorists will do whatever it takes to kill Americans. The United States will not do whatever it takes to protect Americans.

You can catch more flies with broken fingers than you can with honey.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I like to hear! But why stop with terrorists? Let's torture our own rapists and murderers. That'll get people to stop raping and murdering. And while we're at it, bank robbers, armed or not. No more bank robberies if they know they're going to get the chinese water torture. And come to think of it, tax cheats. We spend too much damn money chasing down people who cheat on their taxes. Let's attach electrodes to their nipples. And god damn speeders too. We could reduce insurance premiums here in New Jersey if everyone would slow down. And what better way to make that happen than by chopping off a finger or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why stop at law breakers? Just seems so narrow.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]

That's what I like to hear! But why stop with terrorists? Let's torture our own rapists and murderers. That'll get people to stop raping and murdering. And while we're at it, bank robbers, armed or not. No more bank robberies if they know they're going to get the chinese water torture. And come to think of it, tax cheats. We spend too much damn money chasing down people who cheat on their taxes. Let's attach electrodes to their nipples. And god damn speeders too. We could reduce insurance premiums here in New Jersey if everyone would slow down. And what better way to make that happen than by chopping off a finger or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely! And why should we wait for all the hassles of a due process of law to start? We should have every right to torture anyone we pick up off the street accused of any crime because they might have some kind of information that we might need!

[peritonlogon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Victor Davis Hanson

[/ QUOTE ]
He spoke at my college graduation

[/ QUOTE ]
You're a lucky man. What'd you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like him.... as with any person, idea, movement...etc. not without reservation... but I like him.

Some of the more thinking conservatives go out of their way to laud my college, St. John's College (http://www.sjca.edu) his speach did a touch too much of that... you know, preaching to the choir,.... but I do love it when people complement the place.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
That's what I like to hear! But why stop with terrorists? Let's torture our own rapists and murderers. And while we're at it, bank robbers, armed or not. And come to think of it, tax cheats. And god damn speeders too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do our rapists, murderers, bank robbers, tax cheats, and speeders possess pertinent information that can likely save the lives of hundreds or thousands of people who are potentially in immediate danger?

No.

[ QUOTE ]
That'll get people to stop raping and murdering.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does torturing for purposes of information have to do with deterrence? (besides absolutely nothing, that is)

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that we're better off imprisoning and torturing innocent people than not?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not. Why would we imprison and torture innocent people?

That's barbaric.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
We should have every right to torture anyone we pick up off the street accused of any crime because they might have some kind of information that we might need!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we shouldn't. The Constitution protects US Citizens from cruel and unusual punishment, as well as guarantees them due process when they are accused of a crime.

If you can show me the part that protects foreign terrorists, I'll gladly bid this thread farewell.

[Warik]

By the way, I don't know why everyone is taking the extremist viewpoint and claiming that a lack of this policy should be all-encompassing. That is absurd and, quite frankly, beneath the intellectual level of most posters who frequent this particular forum.

Do you all believe that a 5 year sentence is cruel and unusual punishment for someone who, say, walks into an elementary school, murders a teacher, and then rapes and murders all of the under-age students? How about a 1 year sentence for someone who conspires with a group of people to kill the President?

Oh wait.... you believe those sentences are too lenient? OK - well, I agree... but I also believe a $150 ticket is too lenient for someone who speeds. Put that bastard behind bars and throw away the key! And jaywalkers? Why waste a perfectly good jail cell? Just put a bullet into their thick skulls!

What's that now? You're telling me that you can't compare murder and conspiracy to commit murder to something as trivial as speeding or jaywalking???

You know what? YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT!!!

....... so stop doing so.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that we're better off imprisoning and torturing innocent people than not?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not. Why would we imprison and torture innocent people?

That's barbaric.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, it is, and yet we are doing it on a fairly regular basis in our War on Terror.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We should have every right to torture anyone we pick up off the street accused of any crime because they might have some kind of information that we might need!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we shouldn't. The Constitution protects US Citizens from cruel and unusual punishment, as well as guarantees them due process when they are accused of a crime.

If you can show me the part that protects foreign terrorists, I'll gladly bid this thread farewell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm doing a search right now, but unless I'm mistaken, we do have regulations against imprisoning and torturing foreign nationals without any kind of conviction or recourse against the charges levied against them.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, it is, and yet we are doing it on a fairly regular basis in our War on Terror.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you name some of the innocent people we've imprisoned and tortured?

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're right, it is, and yet we are doing it on a fairly regular basis in our War on Terror.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you name some of the innocent people we've imprisoned and tortured?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are three (http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=4bUT8M23lk&Content=424)

Here are 4 more (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4204041.stm)

This guy also caused a pretty big stir (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html)

That's just from a quick google search and one thread from here. I'm sure that I can find other examples.

Also, I know that you can argue that what goes on at Git'mo isn't torture, but that's for another thread, so let's just stick with wrongful imprisonment.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm doing a search right now, but unless I'm mistaken, we do have regulations against imprisoning and torturing foreign nationals without any kind of conviction or recourse against the charges levied against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Search no further. I found it for you (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=A86.I1sz8aFDCKwAcg2s0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--) - and herein lies the problem.

We've tied our own hands behind our back when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect this country. The notion that the government is going to come to your house and drag you in to torture you for information on terrorist activities is absurd. Do you really think these people were arrested when a friendly game of checkers in some underground bunker somewhere in Iraq was raided?

I fully support an accused US citizen's right to due process and protection from government sanctioned cruelty; however, I also fully support authorized, trained anti-terrorist personnel torturing suspected foreign terrorists for information necessary to protect this country.

With the power also comes the responsibility, so naturally an agent or agency should be held responsible if a subject is tortured unnecessarily. The system will regulate itself. You will not see the construction of torture centers overflowing with suspects because no one is going to arrest and torture everyone they see wearing a turban if they know that they can be held accountable for torturing an innocent person and coming up empty.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
You will not see the construction of torture centers overflowing with suspects because no one is going to arrest and torture everyone they see wearing a turban if they know that they can be held accountable for torturing an innocent person and coming up empty.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that the only way to show whether or not torture is justified is whether or not it results in information?

I just want to be sure that I understand your position that we shouldn't torture people unless they give us information, but they won't give us information unless we torture them.

Quite a little catch-22 you've got going there.

[peritonlogon]

"Draco, being once asked why he made death th epunishment of most offences, replied, "Small ones deserve that, and I have no higher for the greater crimes."" Plutarch, the life of Solon

[PoBoy321]

I'm really curious how Draco is an authority on this.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are three (http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=4bUT8M23lk&Content=424)

Here are 4 more (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4204041.stm)

This guy also caused a pretty big stir (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, so "innocent until proven guilty" applies to suspected foreign terrorists but it doesn't apply to government operated anti-terrorist organizations?

I see heavy usage of different forms of the words "allege," "investigate," and "accuse" but no usages of any form of the word "proof."

[ QUOTE ]
For example, the prisoners would be stripped naked and forced to watch videotapes of other prisoners who, in turn, had been ordered to sodomize each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forced to sodomize each other? Did they force feed them Viagra to make them get erections? I don't know about you, but I'd find it pretty impossible to get it up if I were being forced to have sex with a man... even more impossible on camera.

[ QUOTE ]
The guards would throw the prisoners’ Korans into the toilet. They would forcibly shave the prisoners.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo hoo.

[ QUOTE ]
Some among the British detainees – Moazzam Begg and Feroz Abbasi – have been held in total isolation for well over a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? You mean they tortured them by leaving them alone???

Also please note that I'm talking about torture for the extraction of immediately relevant information. The terms "a year" and "immediate" are not compatible.

IF these allegations are proven to be true, and these people, or others, were tortured just for fun, then I fully agree with prosecution or disciplinary action against those responsible... even if they are confirmed to have terrorist ties.

I DON'T believe in torturing a prisoner just because you're bored or just to be an ass.

I DO believe in torturing a prisoner to extract necessary information when all other avenues have failed.

Hypothetical situation:

Osama bin Laden is captured and knows every single detail about a terrorist attack that will take place in the next 14 days. We politely ask him to tell us. He says no.

Do we a) Say thanks anyway and then send him off to his deluxe prison suite, or b) Start breaking things?

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]

Wait, so "innocent until proven guilty" applies to suspected foreign terrorists but it doesn't apply to government operated anti-terrorist organizations?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the anti-terrorist organizations DID wrongly imprison these men and has admitted it to it through their release.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that the only way to show whether or not torture is justified is whether or not it results in information?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I was not clear. Let me rephrase.

Torture is justified if the organization authorizing the procedure can prove that both:

a) it, or another credible source, has reason to believe that specific terrorist activity (i.e. a bus bombing in Chicago as opposed to "a bomb in the US") endagering human life is to take place in the near future (i.e. this month as opposed to "sometime during the Bush administration).

and

b) it, or another credible source, has reason to believe that the individual being subjected to torture may be privy to information (i.e. leader/organizer/commander/lieutenant as opposed to gun-toting grunt or "random guy who was caught delivering gym bag to X person at Y time in Z location") and that the information one expects to extract can prevent that event from taking place.

I don't see anything unreasonable about that. The torture does not necessarily need to result in information - there just needs to be proof that there was probable cause that information was being withheld by the subject.

It's analagous to the police searching your car for contraband. If I'm driving a brand new car registered in my name, insured in my name, with my valid driver license presented, a fresh new car smell, and 0.00 BAC, the police officer has no right under the Fourth Amendment. If he violates my rights, it could jeopardize the case against me and strengthen my case against them if I decide to file a lawsuit. Likewise, the organization in question would have to cover its ass when making a decision to torture a suspect.

[ QUOTE ]
I just want to be sure that I understand your position that we shouldn't torture people unless they give us information, but they won't give us information unless we torture them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if they gave us the information, we wouldn't need to torture them... so the information comes after the torture. You're on the right track though.

[ QUOTE ]
Quite a little catch-22 you've got going there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when you read it correctly. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really curious how Draco is an authority on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

Yay - we agree on something. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[New001]

What makes you believe that torturing "a captured terrorist that knows every detail of a coming attack" will give you the right information? First, discount all of the publicized issues of torture not working well at all, as well as documented instances in recent history where tortured people gave incorrect information. Now that we've got that out of the way, you now have the option of torturing someone who may be willing to even blow himself up for what he believes in. So, you've captured this terrorist who knows where a bomb is, and you're going to pull his fingernails off until he cracks? You'll need to do some convincing before I'll believe it'll work.

Now, assume the United States starts sanctioning torture. I would hazard a guess that, in a war against an extremist ideology that seems to hate us with a passion, torturing them wouldn't do much to help our cause. Also, it gives us zero right to criticise or do anything against another nation or group who tortures American citizens (think our soldiers overseas).

Torture is terrible. From every single account I've heard, it doesn't work in achieving what it's supposed to, and it opposes so much of what this country has historically stood for.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the anti-terrorist organizations DID wrongly imprison these men and has admitted it to it through their release.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm referring to the allegations of torture.

It's obvious they were imprisoned. There's no need to prove that.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
What makes you believe that torturing "a captured terrorist that knows every detail of a coming attack" will give you the right information?

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you believe that asking a "captured terrorist that knows every detail of a coming attack" politely will give you the right information? Or any?

[ QUOTE ]
First, discount all of the publicized issues of torture not working well at all, as well as documented instances in recent history where tortured people gave incorrect information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Valid point. Since torture has been unsuccessful in more than 0% of cases, then we should avoid it completely.

Hey, rehabilitation in a mental facility for felons who are ruled to be insane fails in more than 0% of the cases doesn't it? Let's abandon the system and just lock those loonies up.

[ QUOTE ]
Now that we've got that out of the way, you now have the option of torturing someone who may be willing to even blow himself up for what he believes in. So, you've captured this terrorist who knows where a bomb is, and you're going to pull his fingernails off until he cracks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Being willing to die for a cause is much different than being willing to suffer and NOT die for a cause. There's a whole different psychological effect in play. Boom = instant death. Pulling off fingernails = prolonged pain, with no death. LYING about information and having that lie discovered only guarantees more prolonged pain.

Will it work in 100% of cases? No.

Will it work in more than 0% of cases? Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
You'll need to do some convincing before I'll believe it'll work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it will work every time. I'm saying it will work often enough to save lives, and it will be used infrequently enough to avoid gross human rights atrocities from taking place because the parties involved will have to justify their actions. FAR FEWER "innocent" (and I use that term very lightly) people will be tortured for information if the parties involved know that they could be hung out to dry if they're wrong.

Like I said: the system will regulate itself.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, assume the United States starts sanctioning torture. I would hazard a guess that, in a war against an extremist ideology that seems to hate us with a passion, torturing them wouldn't do much to help our cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait wait wait - hold on second! Are you saying that all terrorists are Muslim extremists who are all willing to die for their cause???

You know, there are people out there who use terror as a means to attempt to influence governments who are NOT willing to die for their cause.

Besides that, does the fact that a terrorist organization is composed of Muslim extremists guarantee that EVERYONE in the organization is a Muslim extremist who is willing to die for the cause? You're telling me that nobody works for these people for money?

Do you think every last US soldier, who is dedicated to his cause (i.e. the protection of the United States) is willing to die for his country? How many captured US soldiers in history do you think have cracked under torture by enemy forces?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it gives us zero right to criticise or do anything against another nation or group who tortures American citizens (think our soldiers overseas).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree at all. Look at the circumstances. I am not advocating for the torture of captured enemy combatants in a war. I'm advocating for the torture of captured terrorists who may have information on an impending attack on innocent civilians.

So, what gives us the right to criticize? Simple: "Hey, we don't torture your captured soldiers, so stop torturing ours."

[ QUOTE ]
Torture is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the reasons why it works...

[ QUOTE ]
From every single account I've heard, it doesn't work in achieving what it's supposed to

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size.

Just how many accounts have you heard?

How many accounts have the people you heard your accounts from heard?

Why don't you go to this website (http://www.this_website_doesn't_exist.com) and read the report that lists every person every country in the entire world has tortured this year and what the results were?

[ QUOTE ]
it opposes so much of what this country has historically stood for.

[/ QUOTE ]

You appear to be an intelligent person. Please don't tell me that you believe that the US hasn't justifiably used torture in history to achieve an admirable goal just because CNN wasn't around back then.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're right, it is, and yet we are doing it on a fairly regular basis in our War on Terror.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you name some of the innocent people we've imprisoned and tortured?

[/ QUOTE ]


Go back three years ago, and take a look at the ~1000 or so prisoners who were released from gitmo after between 6-12 months of imprisonment.
Why were none of them charged?