Triple crown

In keeping with the Triple Crown Season:

I would love to see who you all think are the best 5 jockeys of modern times (post-1940's). I actually know (at least my opinion). Please list yours. Let's see, did any jocky win more that one triple crown? He must be one of them. Remember, money alone is not the criteria because of inflation, naturally.

I'll get back to you on this one. Remember that purses relative to the value of a dollar were actually much higher back in the early era.


What I'm sick of is hearing that horses like WE, Silver Charm, etc..."didn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the 11 triple crown winners" Sir Barton and Assault were P-I-G-S. And there were a couple of other lackluster champions. I'll give you my 5 best jockeys and 10 greatest racehorses, but I need some time to compile a rational post.

Let me prefact this by saying that my handicapping slant decidedly minimizes the role of a jockey on the outcome of a race. I tend to put more emphasis on the horse than most, about the same as average on the trainer, and less emphasis than most on the jockey. But that said, it seems to me that the following list would be rather solid.


1. Eddie Arcaro

2. Willie Shoemaker

3. Jerry Bailey

4. Gary Stevens

5. Laffit Pincay


I'd throw Baze in there, but for whatever reason, he never gets any big mounts. You need to run in and win big races to be considered, so he misses the list. But he wins more damn photos than anyone I've ever seen.

I did some homework on this one. I think its enlightening that I narrowed it down to the 30 greatest thoroughbreds of all time and that list of 30 excluded 4 of the 11 triple crown winners.


1. Secretariat

2. Citation

3. Native Dancer

4. Manowar

5. Dr. Fager

6. Seattle Slew

7. Affirmed

8. Swaps

9. Spectacular Bid

10. Damascus.


Honorable mention to Personal Ensign, but its too hard to compare fillies vs colts for this.


#'s 11-30 include (in no order):


War Admiral, Count Fleet, Whirlaway, Buckpasser, Bold Ruler, Nashua, Round Table, Tim Tam, Tom Fool, Manilla, Forego, Bold Forbes, Forty Niner, Northern Dancer, Kelso, Holy Bull, Cigar, Risen Star, AP Indy, Sunday Silence.


With 4 triple crown winners absent, and several near misses present, I don't want to hear about how only the "greatest" horses win the triple crown anymore.


Always willing to talk horses,


Clark

the best horses for my money:


1. secretariat (almost no question here)

2. man o war

3. citation

4.seabiscuit (a quirky pick)

5.cigar.

I am sure that i forgot some. I dont think affirmed or seattle slew deserve to be that high. i would put spectacular bid over both of them.


Pat

Seabiscut was a wonderful hard-knocking horse, but he didn't even make my top 30. I place a great deal of emphasis on the entirety of the career. This kept Cigar out of the top 10, despite the brilliance of his dirt only record. And it kept Seabiscut out of the top 30. There are simply too many "Seabiscuts" out there.


I think you can make rational arguements regarding Slew v Affirmed v Bid. I simply can't drop Affirmed any lower than 7th. He beat such quality throughout his carreer that he absolutely must be listed in any top 10, IMO. The reason that I didn't list Man O War as #2, as is the "accepted" ranking of him is because in all of his races past 6f, he never had to beat more than 2 horses. It is only the fact that he set world records that got him ranked that high. Native Dancer was 22-21-1-0. With the one second place finish being by a neck in a troubled derby trip. Hard to leave him out of any list.


If you love the sport, I HIGHLY recommend buying the Daily Racing Form book "Champions". You can get it for $50 now. It is a retrospective of the entire history of American T-Bred racing. It has the entire career charts for every champion horse in the 20th Century. Thats where I get my info from. Best $ I ever spent.

Ruffian. definitely in the top five IMO. Also i disagree slightly with your criteria, although i cant quibble with your rankings. Horses that have a great unsurpassed peak like cigar have to be given strong consideration. that is essentially why affirmed ranks high on these lists, because he won the triple crown. But he never had to win a race like the breeders cup classic against teh best in the world. if cigar ran poorly on turf then that is something to be taken into account but it shouldnt prevent him from being more highly ranked than affirmed or some of the other horses.


Seabiscuit stunk for a while, but then turned into perhaps the best horse since man o war, and smashed existing track records by margins that could be considered ruthian. that is why i consider him in the top three. plus i just read the book on him which i recommend.


Pat

I've read the Seabiscut book. Good stuff.


Like I said, I didn't include fillies because it simply makes things too difficult. But Ruffian, while approaching myth-like status, isn't even the best filly of all time. That distinction clearly goes to Personal Ensign, IMO. Ruffian never raced against, let alone beat older. Heck, if her career at 3 had ended when Ruffian's had, Silverbulletday would have had career chart similar to Ruffians. Running against older is important, IMO. Greatness is more than beating up on just your generation.


Personal Ensign by comparison, also never lost, but beat her generation, beat older fillies, beat older colts (Gulch) and beat the Derby winner Winning Colors twice. All of this after having nearly career ending surgery. I don't think its close.


Affirmed wired Spectacular Bid in the last race of his career. He crushed Costal who beat Bid in the Belmont. He punished Alydar every time he saw him after his 2yo campaign. And he gave a respectable second vs Seattle Slew in his first ever race against older when Slew got a loose lead and ran a monstrous 1:45 4/5 mile and an eighth on a super fast track.


I understand your feelings on Cigar. His race in Saudi Arabia was one of the most impressive races I've ever seen. The problem is that I can't put him side by side with horses like Fager and Native Dancer, yes, even Affirmed and honestly say he was better.

While P.E.'s BC Distaff race in 88 was certainly

a remarkable effort to say she is better than the great filly Ruffian is simply asinine and ridiculous. I would gladly bet my 401k against the prize in a cracker jack box that Ruffian would have took her name and kicked her ass.

In fact, considering the price I would get , I would be willing to put a few bucks on the great filly in a 10f against your top 10 list. Her and

Dr. Fager would do a 1/4 in 21 and change and a half in 44 flat, DR F. would throw in the towel at the top of the stretch but could Ruffian hold of the charge of the 2 Big Reds? I dont know, but I just can't imagine Ruffian being headed.

I apologize for being acrimonious , but I saw Ruffian run, and and Personal Ensign isnt woulndt

have stood a chance in hell against the great filly

I liked

Arcaro

Pincay

Baeza

Hartack

Turcotte (most under rated jockey in years) Secreatariat 1973 still holds the Derby record with Turcotte

Interesting that we both left Cordero out.

I'll assume your references to Ruffian vs horses like Fager headsup are hyperbole to make your point about Ruffian v Personal Ensign. If you are remotely serious, there isn't any reason for us to continue discussion on the topic.


I don't mind the tone. You are one of many who have elevated Ruffian to this myth-like status that is IMO elevated way beyond her actual performances on the track. The sad thing is, she never had a chance to prove herself against older females or older males, and in her only race against something other than her peer group, she broke down.


Not her fault that she never was able to prove it on the track, but that doesn't change that she didn't do it. History is littered with brilliant 2 and 3YO's who absolutely devastated their peer groups, but failed when put to the test against the elite of other generations. This is even more true with fillies than with colts. PE did it (after surgery no less), Ruffian didn't.


Like I said, there is a mythology surrounding Ruffian that I don't get, and will likely never get. Not denying her greatness, but putting her anywhere near the top 10 in a list that includes colts and fillies seems quite a stretch to me.

Well, there are quite few people who I would consider

knowledgable that do "get it". consider the following quotes


After seeing Ruffian win the Spinaway, Lucien Loren is on

record as saying"With God as my witness, I think she's faster

than Secretariat"


Frank Whiteley, who also trained Forego said that Ruffian

was "unquestionably" and "Beyond any doubt" the best horse

he ever trained. I also saw him say in an interview once that

"Ruffian would have kicked Forego's ass"


Stephen Davidowitz ,in his classic book Betting Thoroughbreds

says "at six furlongs , I am convinced that she could have beaten

any horse that ever lived"


Look in your DRF book and see if you can find a horse who ran

the final 1/4 of 12furlong race atBelmont in 24&2 as Ruffian

did in the CCA Oaks? I dont think you can


How many horses can go the 1st 1/4 in 21&3 and still come home

driving , wireing the field ,in a 6 furlong race the way Ruffian

did in the Astoria?


Finally, while its somewhat macbre, I think that the perhaps the

greatest testament to Ruffians spirit is when she broke down

She ran some 80 to 100 yards on 3 legs and a nub, leaning in on

Foolish P.in an attempt to compensate for the loss of a leg

as he went by desperately trying to keep fron being

headed for the first time


Perhaps Ruffians tragic demise adds to her Mythical status, it

certainly leves you with a question of what might have been.

But the way she effortlessly danced away from the feild, set

track and stakes records even though she was unchalleged and

not being asked to run makes her IMHO worthy of her status

And I'd've REALLY made her my bitch back in the stable, if they hadn't hauled her off the track in that truck.


And BTW, WTF am I on Clownmeister's stupid list?

You sucked big donkey balls during the end of your career. Take away your 2YO wins and your careeer is pretty ordinary.


Besides, aren't you dead? And how the hell can you type with hooves?


Hey, I heard Foolish Pleasure had a huge ass. Bigger than most male horses. Bet you'd have liked getting some of that, eh?

Cauthen, Santos, McCarron, Day all pretty good jocks