JTs--play along

[brettbrettr]

live 10/20 half kill, decent game, not great.

Anyhoo, I've been super card dead, haven't played a hand in a long while. About half of the players are new ot the table

UTG (laggy pre-flop, post-flop he's dumb aggresive when no one else is and passive when someone else is aggro ) raises, utg+1 (try to play decent type, not good, but not com,pletely braindead) calls, utg+2 (unknown seems tight) calls, MP1 (very loose, fairly sratightforward post-flop) calls, tight player in MP2 calls, I have J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
and the T /images/graemlins/club.gif is the burn.

I ___________.

[shant]

Caaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll.

[BWebb]

Still call. Most of the value of your hand comes from its straight and flush possibilities, not really the pair possibilities. Just keep that card in mind when calculated outs should you flop a pair.

[SnglMaltScotch]

Raise. This hand plays great in large pots with many people.

[Nick C]

I think I'd prefer if the J /images/graemlins/club.gif were the burn instead.

But whatever. I would call.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

UTG (laggy pre-flop, post-flop he's dumb aggresive when no one else is and passive when someone else is aggro ) raises, utg+1 (try to play decent type, not good, but not com,pletely braindead) calls, utg+2 (unknown seems tight) calls, MP1 (very loose, fairly sratightforward post-flop) calls, tight player in MP2 calls, I have J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
and the T /images/graemlins/club.gif is the burn.

I ___________.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine.

I call, a solid 2p2er calls in the small blind, the BB (loose passive type) calls.


8 to the flop for 16 sbs:

Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG bets, 2 folds, MP1 calls, one fold,

I__________.

[car ramrod]

calls

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

UTG (laggy pre-flop, post-flop he's dumb aggresive when no one else is and passive when someone else is aggro ) raises, utg+1 (try to play decent type, not good, but not com,pletely braindead) calls, utg+2 (unknown seems tight) calls, MP1 (very loose, fairly sratightforward post-flop) calls, tight player in MP2 calls, I have J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
and the T /images/graemlins/club.gif is the burn.

I ___________.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine.

I call, a solid 2p2er calls in the small blind, the BB (loose passive type) calls.


8 to the flop for 16 sbs:

Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG bets, 2 folds, MP1 calls, one fold,

I__________.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lovely. Isn't it great when you catch some small piece of the flop like this and it comes one bet to you and you sort of have the immediate odds to call even when we discount for the flush draw we could be up against if we also take our implied odds into account, but then who knows if one of more of those in crowd to act behind you will raise? I guess probably someone will, because this flop must've hit someone else better than it hit you, and who's going to give any credit to the LAG's multiway auto-bet?

Anyway, I guess I'd grudgingly call and hope for the best.

Edit: By the way, this will give some idea of how loose I was feeling when I responded: For some reason, I thought the flop began with only 8 SBs in the pot.

Since it's actually 16 SBs, I think the call is fairly easy. I'm still apprehensive as I call, though, since I really don't like my hand much, and I am a little concerned there may be a raise and a 3-bet behind me.

[SnglMaltScotch]

This is also why I three bet preflop. If I do, I bet the 2+2er, sb, and bb aren't there anymore and I check behind and make sure that the turn is a 9.

Since you called, I call the flop. You only have 3.5 outs(9h is trouble) are are getting 18:1.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise. This hand plays great in large pots with many people.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is already large and multiway. Raising might make it less multiway while not really affecting largeness.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
This is also why I three bet preflop. If I do, I bet the 2+2er, sb, and bb aren't there anymore

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets not be flop-results oriented.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

UTG (laggy pre-flop, post-flop he's dumb aggresive when no one else is and passive when someone else is aggro ) raises, utg+1 (try to play decent type, not good, but not com,pletely braindead) calls, utg+2 (unknown seems tight) calls, MP1 (very loose, fairly sratightforward post-flop) calls, tight player in MP2 calls, I have J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
and the T /images/graemlins/club.gif is the burn.

I ___________.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine.

I call, a solid 2p2er calls in the small blind, the BB (loose passive type) calls.


8 to the flop for 16 sbs:

Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG bets, 2 folds, MP1 calls, one fold,

I__________.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit more info I guess.

At the time I though UTGs range here is any pair, any ace, bigger kings, and of course a queen, eight or seven. Yes, he could be making a continuation bet into the field.


MP1 would have most likely raised a queen, maybe even second pair or a flush draw. His range is a bit tougher to figure out, but I'm almost positive he doesn't have a queen.

[brettbrettr]

Alright, I'll just get to the point:

Assuming neither player has a queen, how many outs do we have here? How much do we discount the nines, tens and jacks considering the heart draw?

Also bear in mind that one ten is dead.

[shant]

When I first saw this hand I thought to raise initially, for free card possibility and cleaning outs etc. I'm no math expert, so maybe someone smart can help me out here and explain why that might be bad with the hearts on the board because I count ~7 outs.

[JojoDiego]

I too thought about raising here for a free card. The UTG scares easily (right?) and the loose MP1 caller hasn't shown any strength. Of course, suffering a check-raise from the blinds would suck.

[rmarotti]

I think 7 is a little generous as not only do we have to worry about our heart outs being tainted, but our pair cards either give gutshots a straight, or someone an OESD that they might peel again with. Granted, alot of those hands are in serious trouble against us, but I still put us somewhere between 5-6 outs and I think a raise here would be bad.

I'm on heavy medication right now, so if none of that makes sense, that's why.

[silkyslim]

I would count 3x 9's, and our J's and T's as 2 outs. Why wouldnt UTG have a Q though? anyway, since we have odds to continue, I like to raise for a free card and maybe fold the blinds for some cleaner outs. for those advocating calling, can you list the ways this is better than raising?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldnt UTG have a Q though?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could easily have a Q. He could easily have a ton of hands though and his bet means precisely nothing to me.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldnt UTG have a Q though?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could easily have a Q. He could easily have a ton of hands though and his bet means precisely nothing to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
so in a pot this big you cant do the "fit or fold" thing. We want to think of ways of winning it so we cant assume UTG's bet is teh nuts (TP) like we could if the pot was tiny.

[brettbrettr]

I never considered folding. That wasn't a consideration at all.

Learn how to put sentences together...

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Learn how to put sentences together...

[/ QUOTE ]

Eat a dick.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
I never considered folding. That wasn't a consideration at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol i know, what i meant was normally with an over on the board I dont count my pair outs at all. but here we are. is it because the pot is big or what?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

lol i know, what i meant was normally with an over on the board I dont count my pair outs at all. but here we are. is it because the pot is big or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh. Given my reads, I felt pretty confident that niehter play has a queen here a good % of the time. MP has a queen here almost nevver. UTG is a bit harder to read because he's laggy pre-flop and doesn't slow down unless someone pops him. So, assuming the flop missed him as much as flops miss post people, I figured my jacks and tens, while dirty, might be good.

[paperboyNC]

You have a marginal hand with a marginal draw.

Peel a card. raising the flop is spewing. You might raise the turn if you pair up with a non-heart (3 outs).

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Learn how to put sentences together...

[/ QUOTE ]

Eat a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

I think I raise in this game -- it will often eliminate the 2p2er and the BB and possibly clean up some of those J/T outs (if they actually exist). It might also buy you a free card. Staying aggressive in this game also has some large metagame value.

On the other hand, if the 2p2er CRs, I don't like my situation too much.

[CardSharpCook]

watch me write a Hand for analysis.

JTs in the CO.

UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Is this enough action to call with JTs?

I like a flop raise.

It may get the better post flop players to fold, it gets the weak UTG to slow down and the obvious free card benefits.

You've got minimum 15% equity in a humungoid pot and already 2 players in the pot. The free card doesn't have to come very often to be profitable.

If I didn't have the read on UTG, I might favour a call.

BTW. I doubt you're clearing up any outs with a raise.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW. I doubt you're clearing up any outs with a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

My clearing outs comment was based on OP's belief that there is not a Q in the hand of the first two players...

You don't think a raise gets an AJ/KT type hand to fold in the blinds? Call two cold with those hands OOP? I think it clears outs as often as it buys a free card...

[Baloosh]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it clears outs as often as it buys a free card...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's any chance of a free turn card in this hand, in this size pot, even if you raise the flop. About the only thing you can do is hope to blast out those behind you, but you should pretty much expect to put money in on the turn as well, given the reads on the players.

[hobbsmann]

brett,

I think this is an easy raised based on the info you gave for the villains. You state that UTG gets really passive if others show aggresion so basically just on this info you should be able to get a free card a lot and thus make raising this flop EV+. It is also likely that neither the calling villain or the pfr have a pair yet so you might have a lot more outs than the worst case 3.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a marginal hand with a marginal draw.

Peel a card. raising the flop is spewing. You might raise the turn if you pair up with a non-heart (3 outs).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had 2 overs and gutter would you raise? Is my hand marginal because of the queen or the gutshots?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a marginal hand with a marginal draw.

Peel a card. raising the flop is spewing. You might raise the turn if you pair up with a non-heart (3 outs).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had 2 overs and gutter would you raise? Is my hand marginal because of the queen or the gutshots?

[/ QUOTE ]

The queen and the hearts, I think.