River decision/am I committed?

[johnnybeef]

This one is from a 22, and we are about 6 hands in. Im on the button with t700 and i look down to see 2 black aces. All fold to the hijack who open limps (has me covered). I make it 60 to play, the sb folds, the bb (has me covered) calls, as does the hijack.

Reads: Hijack is a calling station, and could be limping with any two here.

BB: hasn't played a hand yet.

flop (190) TcQdKc BB minbets t15, hijack calls, I call.

Turn (235) Jh BB minbets, hijack calls, I raise to 250, bb calls, hijack folds.

River (750) Td BB shoves. I have 350 behind.

Comments on all streets appreciated, I think that I played it perfectly on all streets, except perhaps the river, which I am still unsure if I am pot commited or not.

[tigerite]

I would be raising the flop - too many draws out there and too much chance you already have the best hand anyway. Plus which it makes the shove on the turn much easier, then you don't have a difficult decision on the river.

[johnnybeef]

I totally disagree with this line. If I raise and he shoves, I have to fold a hand that has a ton of cards that could improve my equity here. Playing post flop is fun.

[kevkev60614]

Aye. Raise the flop. From what you are on the river, I think you have to call.

[junkmail3]

Not calling puts him on exactly KK/QQ/JJ/TT/KT/QT/JT - 7 hands.

It's more than 2, but come on. Pot committed or not, you're playing a 22 with a stragith and you're thinking about folding ... ?

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally disagree with this line. If I raise and he shoves, I have to fold a hand that has a ton of cards that could improve my equity here. Playing post flop is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 640 chips and the pot is 220 to you on the flop. There's no "playing post flop" here.

Just get it in on the flop. All other options are worse.

Irieguy

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]


You have 640 chips and the pot is 220 to you on the flop. There's no "playing post flop" here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

[Marc H]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 640 chips and the pot is 220 to you on the flop. There's no "playing post flop" here.

Just get it in on the flop. All other options are worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.
And when your flop flat-call results in your losing all your chips to a club flush? That's Sklansky's "mathematical catastrophe" hitting you in the face.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have 640 chips and the pot is 220 to you on the flop. There's no "playing post flop" here.

Just get it in on the flop. All other options are worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.
And when your flop flat-call results in your losing all your chips to a club flush? That's Sklansky's "mathematical catastrophe" hitting you in the face.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the ace of clubs so this doesn't really apply here. Shoving the flop was never really a thought in my mind for some reason, even though, now it is totally the obvious play to me.

[The Yugoslavian]

beefy,

In such short stack tournament play....shoving should *always* be something you consider.

Yugoslav

[johnnybeef]

I knew that the ten was a terrible card for me, and I very nearly laid it down (I would have probably laid it down at a 55+.) Much to my dismay, he turned over JTo for a full house.

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]

Comments on all streets appreciated, I think that I played it perfectly on all streets, except perhaps the river, which I am still unsure if I SHOULD BE commited or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP...Answer = Yes

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally disagree with this line. If I raise and he shoves, I have to fold a hand that has a ton of cards that could improve my equity here. Playing post flop is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise and he shoves, you fold? Really? I wouldn't.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I totally disagree with this line. If I raise and he shoves, I have to fold a hand that has a ton of cards that could improve my equity here. Playing post flop is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise and he shoves, you fold? Really? I wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

on instinct alone, yes. after i am done with the current set that i am playing, i will do some math and report back.

[tigerite]

Well, in that case, as Irieguy says I'd just push the flop when it gets back to you, to stop that even being a possibility. It would be so easy for someone to bluff you off of the best hand (by some considerable distance) by pushing a draw, and you can't let that happen.

I make the decision that I'm going to the felt with this hand, and I think by raising less than all-in it gives my opponent the chance to push back on a bluff, with a hand he would likely fold to a push - whether this is good or not I don't know, as it comes under curtains' argument of being too greedy etc, it might just be best to take the t200 that is there already.

[tewall]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, in that case, as Irieguy says I'd just push the flop when it gets back to you, to stop that even being a possibility. It would be so easy for someone to bluff you off of the best hand (by some considerable distance) by pushing a draw, and you can't let that happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about if there were 4 players in the pot instead of 3? And the flop came with three spades instead of just two? Are you willing to risk everything just because you have Aces regardless?

I don't think it's as easy as you can't let someone push you off a hand that might be best. You still have a lot of chips, and this was about as bad a flop as you can get with AA.

I like the push idea better than the raise idea, for the reason you point out, that it takes away any pushing equity an opponent might have. The other thing is someone with JTo might (MIGHT) fold.

However I think the posters line of calling a cheap bet here to see the turn is fine. I'm not sure that throwing up and abdocating the hand might be the best play though.

I didn't see the amount of the flop bet, just saw that it was described as small, but it's not small. I agree with Irieguy's comments about pushing, although I think throwing up is a close second.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, in that case, as Irieguy says I'd just push the flop when it gets back to you, to stop that even being a possibility. It would be so easy for someone to bluff you off of the best hand (by some considerable distance) by pushing a draw, and you can't let that happen.

I make the decision that I'm going to the felt with this hand, and I think by raising less than all-in it gives my opponent the chance to push back on a bluff, with a hand he would likely fold to a push - whether this is good or not I don't know, as it comes under curtains' argument of being too greedy etc, it might just be best to take the t200 that is there already.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hindsight, I definately like Irie's line the best. In an effort to keep the discussion going, lets say that he repops me on the flop. Against the range of any two broadway, I am a slight favorite. Even if I modify his range to be at least two pair and AK, a call would be correct.

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 48.1444 % [ 00.46 00.02 ] { AsAd }
Hand 2: 51.8556 % [ 00.50 00.02 ] { KK-TT, AKs-AQs, KQs, KTs, QTs, AKo-AQo, KQo, KTo, QTo }


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Looks like my thinking is off in several cases.

[tewall]

I think you should raise more PF to make it more likely you don't get more than one caller.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should raise more PF to make it more likely you don't get more than one caller.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i want action.

[durron597]

Jam the turn. You get called by two pair or a set all the time here, and you have the nuts.

[tewall]

just from one guy, not two.

Actually I guess two is OK. One is easier, but you're in position, and ur way is probably higher +EV, just more difficult and higher volatility.