$55: When to do a continuation bet out of position vs 2 opponents?

[AA suited]

I'm doing this from the top of my head

Lvl2 blinds (15/30)

10 players and Everyone has ~1000 chips, no reads.

HERO = CO-1 with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Preflop:
Hero raises to 100, CO calls, Button calls, blinds fold

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif
HERO? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Usually, i always make a continuation bet vs 2 opponents or less, even if OOP. If called, i check/fold on turn if i dont have a piece of the board. I'll also be down to ~700 chips.

If they fold, i'm at ~1200 chips.

now i'm questioning my line (and alot of other strategies i've been doing).

Would you do a continuation bet here? Why/why not?

How about if I had AK?

THX!

[Snarf]

I don't think a continuation bet would get a Queen to fold here...though you could bet out a 9 that way. AK might be a better cont bet here than the underpair - just for sake of improvement...

If you want to have any hope of winning the pot, you have to bet.

....I'm gonna say bet this one. You might take a couple draws for a short ride and the late position callers may not have a premium hand.

OOT:
I wonder if the real lesson here is not to play midpairs for raises OOP early on...

The texture of this flop isn't good. I probably check fold here because of my position. If only one player was behind me and the other in a blind who checked, I might fire one off.

Does raising here PF first-in "buy" you position? I don't know if raising PF here is a terrible play because it just might buy you position in the hand. Maybe it depends on your post-flop abilities when you do get both the CO and Button.

I think this is a clear limp preflop. As played, bet 1/2 pot on flop and checkfold if called.

[trojanFan]

Disclaimer: I've got about one month and only 300 sng's under my belt at the 33's and a few 55's...

I've been really frustrated with this same predicament. I've resolved to playing those small and mid-pairs for set value in EP in the early rounds (and be ready to release them if it doesn't hit). Especially at the 33's, if someone behind me gets any piece of the flop, they're just not likely to go away.

Would be interested in hearing more opinions on this.

Thanks!

[11t]

I raise this 100% of the time. If you aren't open-raising from the CO-1 with 88+ I think you are losing value. That being said you aren't nearly deep stacked enough to be throwing continuation bets that are like 20-30% of your remaining stack OOP 3-handed.

wow, raise in level 2 with 88, 100% of the time but don't throw CB's OOP, wow. You are bleeding off a lot of your chips just to steal blinds. CB after this raise is almost a necessity say 70% of the time. FWIW, I would limp the 88 preflop in level 2, but if i did raise, i definitely follow it up with CB.

[schwza]

i would give up here with 88 or AK. with two players there's too much chance someone has a decent hand here. if it's checked through i'll bet 88.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I would limp the 88 preflop in level 2, but if i did raise, i definitely follow it up with CB.

[/ QUOTE ]

[zipppy]

I would limp in co-1 this early in a tourney. co or button I would raise.

If I did raise, I would check/fold with two+ callers and most likely raise with one caller on this flop.


>>>ZIPPPY

[11t]

Firstly, I wouldn't classify open raising 88 from CO-1 as "stealing blinds". Secondly, If button calls, and a blind comes along and this flops and the blind checks I would be far more inclined to throw out a continuation bet.

The pot is ~300, you have ~900 left behind. A contination bet here is going to cost you ~200 chips or roughly ~23% of your remaining stack. With two people left to act I am not too big a fan of throwing out a CB here.

EDIT: and I am actually open-raising this probably 75% of the time. 99/TT is prolly 100% open-raising.

[Khern]

I've been folding preflop. Other than hitting a set or other, rare, favorable board, I don't have a plan if I see resistance... except for fold. I don't like to limp and let someone else take the lead, and I don't like to look like I'm stealing here. I'm not sure how this differs too much from limp-stealing with any 2 (and I've noticed a lot of people doing that from the button lately.)

That's just my take, I might be horribly wrong...

John

firstly, this is level 2, so if you want the blinds and are trying to force the others out (unless they have very decent or premium hands), then that is what you are doing, you are forcing the others out of this action, unless they have a good hand (i.e. stealing blinds).

secondly, you won't CB OOP, but it appears you will with position, in which 1/2 of the time you will not even get an opportunity to CB, because one of the other 2 will lead out. Any flop misses any player 2/3 of the time. To not CB on this board is a sin. Why do you think that just because the board has 2 overs that it hit your opponents? You don't think they could have been on Ax, or JJ and be forced to fold to your CB. To say "i will bet this hand 75% of the time, but not CB ever" is really donking off your chips. That means any time there is an over card against 2 opponents your giving the hand up, then why did you bet preflop in the first place? Oh yeah, that's right, so you could at least get the blinds (in level 2 at that).

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I wouldn't classify open raising 88 from CO-1 as "stealing blinds". Secondly, If button calls, and a blind comes along and this flops and the blind checks I would be far more inclined to throw out a continuation bet.

The pot is ~300, you have ~900 left behind. A contination bet here is going to cost you ~200 chips or roughly ~23% of your remaining stack. With two people left to act I am not too big a fan of throwing out a CB here.

EDIT: and I am actually open-raising this probably 75% of the time. 99/TT is prolly 100% open-raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this man - he has it spot on. I would raise here most of the time and not cb this flop. It's just too likely one of them has a piece of it.

tigerite,

What "piece of it" is significant though? Barring the dreaded set, the only thing your worried about really is a Q. A decent CB will price out draws and make a 9 fold. I like rasing 88 in CO-1 here and you and 11t seem to agree. If this raise is not a "steal" per se, then a CB is likely your only weapon post-flop unless you make your 8:1 set.

[tigerite]

The problem with betting though is you open up the possibility for solid, good players to push with a draw, or at the very least re-raise, and then you can easily fold the best hand. You have a very marginal hand here at best, that even if it is ahead, doesn't rate to be very often by the river, and you leave yourself very exposed to being bluffed either on this street or later ones. This is what I don't like about the CB here very much.

Understood. But then you are raising PF pretty much to steal or flop a set.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I wouldn't classify open raising 88 from CO-1 as "stealing blinds". Secondly, If button calls, and a blind comes along and this flops and the blind checks I would be far more inclined to throw out a continuation bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I'm glad to see you're not trying to take down T45 in blinds in the pot - I'm curious exactly what WOULD you classify this raise as?

88 plays so poorly to soo many flops...I don't mind the raise as a play for chips if you're willing to bluff out the rest of the hand....

I can kinda see where you're coming from...Raise the pair for 'best hand at moment' value???? Is that what you're thinking? But then check/fold the flop when the situation ends up going south on ya.

I just think that the situation here will go more south than north in these spots....

then again...I suck...

[tewall]

I think perhaps he's not against the idea of often CB'ing, but just not against this particular flop.

[tewall]

I play at a lower level, but I find a half-pot bet to be very profitable. I'm not smart enough to know which flops to do it on and which not, so I always do it. I don't have to worry about randomizing my play because of the level of the competition, which you proabably do. I haven't kept track of how often it takes down the pot, but I'm quite sure it's over half the time -- way over 1/3 of the time anyway. It's so profitable I don't worry about the times it doesn't work. I don't know if this would hold at the $55's, though.

I don't see how 88 is playable unless the plan is to make a continuation bet some % of the time if you miss. I think Phil Gordon suggests a continuation bet 65% of the time, which includes both flops which are good in the mix, so you'd follow up with a flop where you whiffed some % of the time and check-fold the rest.

[ QUOTE ]
I think perhaps he's not against the idea of often CB'ing, but just not against this particular flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.
I might CB a flop of Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

And again, the raise PF might get yourself the effective button where you are in a MUCH better spot to play the hand.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
Bingo.
I might CB a flop of Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

REally? I would be LESS likely to CB that flop than I would the flop with the 9 of hearts...
Difference for me is that you might take a non-paired flush-draw for some chips. What worse hand do you expect to call you with your rainbow flop? 10 J I guess...

Or maybe the point you're making is that the people might raise you off you CB bet with only a flush draw...
That I do understand...just had a run of people calling/not raising with flush draws is all.

There are definitely worse flops than this one for pocket 88. And three-way, I don't always fear that my opponents have two hearts with 2 on the board. The problem is that is they do have 2 hearts, both are likely higher than an 8 which makes you a dog.

I'm not advocating a CB per se. I'm just saying that my line probably varies from CB to check/fold depending on my reads.

[Kristian]

I think way too much credit is being given to the $55-crowd in this thread. The fact is, when two players call off 10% of their stack preflop in a 55'er, they are rarely going to have a hand that justifies the call, and you can easily get further calls (or pushes) on this flop with flush draws, Q's, 9's even gut shot draws and whatever.
In short you have no idea where you are on most flops, so if you are not prepared to c-bet most of the time, don't raise the hand preflop. Like most people agree, the c-bet will often not be a super comfy play with 88, so don't raise the hand preflop when blinds are this tiny. You will have a hard time outplaying your 'average' caller because you don't know what kind of donk he is.
If you have previous knowledge that the callers are solid thinking players, or if the game is at a larger buy-in, several comments in this thread become much more relevant.

[curtains]

I would never in my wildest dreams bet this flop in a $55 sit and go (or a regular $215 for that matter)

[curtains]

Man all this debate....really betting this flop first to act against 2 opponents is just terrible most of the time. What the hell are you guys trying to do here? You can't just bet at every pot and hope to win it.

[curtains]

Also raising preflop is completely obvious, everything else is pretty much crap.

[tigerite]

Finally a voice amongst the madness.

[curtains]

Well a flop like Q9x is one of the worst flops to bet against 2 callers. I mean its hard to envision hands in which they will both fold. Two underpairs maybe...maybe AT...but really its just a terrible spot.

[tigerite]

Yes exactly. Especially two suited as well.