Turn in Multiway hand with TT

[QTip]

Party Poker (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, Hero calls, sb folds, BB calls, all limpers call.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (8 handed)

Checked to MP3 who bets, CO calls, Hero raises, all call.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/club.gif (8 handed)

Checked to MP3 who bets, CO folds, Hero ?

[TheHip41]

I'd call and river a straight. This guy isn't betting without at least a J here.

Hmm, isn't this a clear call? You're most probably behind, or do you mean you could raise this OESD for value? Well, two of your outs are dirty and even if they weren't you'd still need four additional callers, and since most of your opponents will fold for two beg bets I wouldn't raise this. I'd call and wouldn't mind a raise behind me.

[car ramrod]

I usually 3bet pf, curious why you didn't.

[QTip]

I thought about 3 betting PF, but I didn't. I thought I'd rather set up a situation where I could raise favorable flops.

Would the 6 on the flop being changed to some stupid rag like a 3 change anyone's mind?

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Would the 6 on the flop being changed to some stupid rag like a 3 change anyone's mind?

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Wouldn't change my mind anyway. You still got an overpair with a backdoor straight and could very well have the best hand, and you would really like to get people with an overcard or something to fold, and hopefully people with weak gutshots fold (thus making a mistake).

I definitely would have waited for the turn to raise.

[QTip]

I'm sorry...I'm talking about the impact that would have on the turn decision if the 6 were a 3.

Basically, I'm looking at whether or not it's worth it to raise to try to get rid of some gutshot should the river come a T. Obviously a 7 wouldn't go anywhere there with the 6 being present.

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Basically, I'm looking at whether or not it's worth it to raise to try to get rid of some gutshot should the river come a T. Obviously a 7 wouldn't go anywhere there with the 6 being present.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't worry about it now. After raising the flop, the worst you can offer a gutshot is 8.5:1 and even if you get every gutshot to fold, the T is still dirtied by any 7.
You won't add anything to your equity by raising here, just call.

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I definitely would have waited for the turn to raise.

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Just realized that then the hand would look almost EXACTLY like the hand in the "Two Overpair Hands" -section in SSHE. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Calling is probably best then I assume, perhaps I sometimes have trouble applying the "waiting-for-the-turn-to-raise" concept.

By the way, wouldn't that apply to the original hand also, i.e. just calling the flop is an option? Or is the difference that in the original hand the board is more coordinated, meaning there are more scare cards, making pushing our edge by raising a better play?

[ QUOTE ]
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I definitely would have waited for the turn to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just realized that then the hand would look almost EXACTLY like the hand in the "Two Overpair Hands" -section in SSHE. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Calling is probably best then I assume, perhaps I sometimes have trouble applying the "waiting-for-the-turn-to-raise" concept.

By the way, wouldn't that apply to the original hand also, i.e. just calling the flop is an option? Or is the difference that in the original hand the board is more coordinated, meaning there are more scare cards, making pushing our edge by raising a better play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to the flop.

We call the flop intending to raise any safe turn card and offer gutshots and bottom/middle pair hands incorrect odds to call.

But the turn card ISN'T a SAFE card, so we just call anyway, regardless of what we did on the flop.

We aren't going to add enough equity to our hand by raising the turn - regardless of what we did on the flop.

If MP3 doesn't have us beat already, he holds the overcards you're trying to fold in other's hands anyway. And as I said before the T is always dirtied by any 7 which you can never offer incorrect odds to call. Plus any bottom and middle pair hands are taking equity away from top pair hands
and only adding $ for your draw.

Call the flop.
Call the turn.
River a 7 /images/graemlins/grin.gif

What makes you think I was talking about the turn? The turn is easy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was referring to your comment that we should wait for the turn to raise if the 6 was a 3 instead, and I wondered if just calling the flop was an option in the original hand (where the 6 still is a 6).

Edit:
Aaaa, I suppose you had what I wrote earlier in mind:

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Wouldn't change my mind anyway. You still got an overpair with a backdoor straight and could very well have the best hand, and you would really like to get people with an overcard or something to fold, and hopefully people with weak gutshots fold (thus making a mistake).

[/ QUOTE ]

That was me talking about the flop if the 6 was a 3, where I advocated a raise.

[hobbsmann]

I think you are losing too much value by not 3-betting preflop. I also like a turn raise for a couple of reason: 1) it is possible that we could clean up our set outs by getting somebody to fold a gutshot by facing them with 2 cold, 2) this is a quasi free showdown situation where you will be able to charge others with flush draws the maximum and considering we are probably showing our hand down anyway we might as well do the most to extract/protect for the times we are ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
What makes you think I was talking about the turn? The turn is easy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was referring to your comment that we should wait for the turn to raise if the 6 was a 3 instead, and I wondered if just calling the flop was an option in the original hand (where the 6 still is a 6).

Edit:
Aaaa, I suppose you had what I wrote earlier in mind:

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't change my mind anyway. You still got an overpair with a backdoor straight and could very well have the best hand, and you would really like to get people with an overcard or something to fold, and hopefully people with weak gutshots fold (thus making a mistake).

[/ QUOTE ]

That was me talking about the flop if the 6 was a 3, where I advocated a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter if the 6 is a 3 or if you have KK instead of TT. It has to do with your ability to be able to protect that hand.

In this case (the 6 and TT) there are two reasons to wait for the turn.
1. The size of the pot (inability to protect)
2. Vulnerability of hand. (marginal equity and number of non-out turn cards)


Number 1 is covered 163-64 SSHE
Number 2 is covered 187-188 SSHE

Thank you, then I got my question answered /images/graemlins/smile.gif I have no problem with the turn, I suggested a call in my first post. The only thing I wondered about was the waiting-for-the-turn-to-raise concept, and if it was any difference if the 6 was a 3.

I still feel as there is a difference though, that is, there are more safe cards if the 6 was a 3 instead. What I'm implying is that since there really isn't that many safe cards with the 6, so I thought it's better to raise the flop while we "know" we're ahead, pushing our edge. With a 3 instead, there are more safe cards, so in that case it's better to just call and wait for the turn to raise if a safe card comes.

So I suppose I'm not convinced yet.

[Songwind]

16:1 with 10 outs? I call.

[gopnik]

I call, I don't want to raise and get 3-bet.
Easy call to me.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry...I'm talking about the impact that would have on the turn decision if the 6 were a 3.

Basically, I'm looking at whether or not it's worth it to raise to try to get rid of some gutshot should the river come a T. Obviously a 7 wouldn't go anywhere there with the 6 being present.

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From all the calling that has gone on in the hand thus far, I don't know how much I like the chances of anyone folding to a raise.

If the 6 were a 3 and you didn't have straight draw, your hand might be a fold.

[spydog]

Raise the turn. You might clean up some T outs. Worse case scenario is that you get 3-bet and there are only 2 opponents, but that doesn't really cost that much because your equity is still decent.

3-bet PF. You have the 5th best hand in poker and at least 5 people have a worse hand.

[McGahee]

I also 3-bet PF. Like the flop raise. Originally I thought it'd be a good spot to wait till the turn, but I don't know how often MP3 is betting the turn vs. this many opponents with a hand that doesn't crush us.
The turn has so many freaking dimensions to it, I don't know what to think.

[BWebb]

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...you would really like to get people with an overcard or something to fold, and hopefully people with weak gutshots fold (thus making a mistake).

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Edit to add: This is more of a general post, not just this hand specifically.

I see this a lot during arguments about raising the flop or waiting until the turn. The case for raising the flop when it won't decrease pot odds to the point where opponents call incorrectly is usually argued by saying something along the lines of "give them a chance to fold incorrectly." The problem with this is most small stakes hold'em players don't fold whether it is correct or not! They call whether the pot odds are with them or against them. So raising the flop hoping to get them to do something that they don't normally do is pointless, they are going to call and it just so happens it is still correct for them to do so in this spot. A raise on the flop makes them chose two options, one good for you and one bad for you, with the one bad for you something they do the vast majority of the time. However, waiting until the turn to see if a safe card comes will make them chose two options that are both good for you. I know the subject of waiting until the turn has been covered in numerous poker books, but I just wanted to reiterate it.

[QTip]

Rather humorous ending to the hand:

I went ahead and just called the turn...still not sure about it even though raising just 2 clean up 2 outs isn't worth it here if that's all we're doing.

After I called, some others called, and a guy in MP timed out.

The river was a T.

Everyone checked to me, and I bet and got a handful of callers.

Turns out MP who timed out had 77. I did win a side pot though that gave me + $8 for the hand.

[Ice]

Qtip

I like the pre-flop call,although a three bet isn't bad either. On the flop i thought you should wait until the turn
to raise but i would be wrong you have to much going for you with the overpair,gutshot and backdoor draw good raise.

Now to the turn, mp3 just called your flop raise now comes out betting the turn.It appears weak to me so i would raise and see if i can knock some people out to improve my chances in this huge pot.It's a risky raise with this board but you did pick up the open end straight draw so even if your behind to a set or two pair you have outs.Ice

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely would have waited for the turn to raise.

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bingo. callers on the flop are getting 9-1 immediate odds to call. Your hand is vulnerable and raising doesn't protect it.

Given this fact, should hero have just RR pf?

If its a really passive player its an easy fold.

Anyone else I am raising and facing the rest of the field with 2 cold in this huge pot. You have the best hand here alot of the time.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
If its a really passive player its an easy fold.

Anyone else I am raising and facing the rest of the field with 2 cold in this huge pot. You have the best hand here alot of the time.

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No, he doesn't. At 2-4, that turn donk means "I can beat TT, and I dont want to give a free card"

To the OP--this is an awesome hand.

I have a whole bunch of questions.

In this hand, CC'ing pf (as opposed to 3betting) so we can R a favorable flop, seems useless because the pot will be too big to protect our hand regardless. When would it be correct to CC with this intention?

My first instinct on the flop was to call with the intention of raising a safe turn. Does MP3 really bet the turn with hands that we beat? If not, then we should raise the flop for value, right?

If we raise the turn, and get three bet by MP3, we fold the river UI?
If we raise the turn, MP3 and others just call, what do we do on a non spade J-8,6,4-2 if it’s checked to us?
If we just call the turn, river is as above and it’s checked to MP3 who bets, what do we do? We fold an A or K, right?

I don't think you win this hand without a non spade 7 or Q for six outs. A raise here should not clean up any outs. I'd call this turn with the hopes of inducing more calls behind. If so, I expect to make more money if I catch my striaght. A 7 would be particularly juicy as the chacnes of a five being out there are good.