Handling reraises preflop (noob question)

[emil3000]

Stars 200 PLO. Everyone have about a full buy. I raise pot UTG to 7 with 8TJQds (bad?) about 6 callers, villain (dr cobben btw) makes it 65. Easy call? I have the equity for sure, I just feel like I don't get to see all the cards pretty often.

Push better?

[Tilt]

If you never, ever raised a hand UTG it would be only a small mistake. This is not a terrible hand to raise UTG at a loose table, but its still just a drawing hand which won't play well out of position. Just limp and call the raise, you'll be in much better shape.

Now that you have been reraised, I don't see calling 1/3 of your stack off here. More often than not you'll end up all in on the flop if you do drawing thinly, possibly with your draws dominated. If you think there will be a few more callers you could call, but I think heads up its better to fold to the reraise.

Pushing is not terrible, it might be the best solution as I think about it. You probably have 45% equity and the extra money in the pot already probably makes it an EV coinflip. You might push out the higher flush draws in doing so. So I say push and embrace variance here.

Looking forward to hearing what others think on this one.

[TheRempel]

Based on the fairly small sample of hands I've played with Dr Cobben, I think the reraise is a fairly likely AAxx. He will pot the flop no matter what. If you think his raise will get it HU or three handed as is, I would call. If there are likely to be two or more callers behind I would strongly consider reraising as you are not likely to be in a -EV situation with the dead money in the middle and there are metagame benefits.

I'm not one to put it allin with by far the worst hand at these limits because I've seen bizarre hands overcall with all sorts of crazy junk that your hand might not like at all. I don't like calling cause you have to hit the flop pretty well (for this amount) and you still might be in trouble. I'm probably folding in this situation. But if he'll go nutso with any AA type hand I'm usually hanging around with anything decent against that trying to bust it.

I don't raise preflop with this hand because almost nobody's folding and you still have to hit majorly well unless the players are that weak tight post flop.

Oh and if two people call behind the first raiser there is no dead money in the middle because they aren't going to fold. Your flush draws should be dead so you have to hit a straight or a full house to win if you reraise.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]

Stars 200 PLO. Everyone have about a full buy. I raise pot UTG to 7 with 8TJQds (bad?) about 6 callers, villain (dr cobben btw) makes it 65. Easy call? I have the equity for sure, I just feel like I don't get to see all the cards pretty often.

Push better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations, you have reached the best situation you can in PLO. You are putting in 30% of your stack preflop as a tiny dog against an opponent who is playing with his hand faceup. Now you get to make the decision whether to commit the remainder of your chips in as a favorite, or fold when not.

Busting aces is absolutely the most profitable situation in this game.

fold or reraise. getting 30-35% of stack against probably aces is not what I'm looking for. heads up all in is fine with all the dead money, and if the others choose to call all in it's fine as well cause your hand shows a long run profit multiway.

just adding: calling preflop is better I think. PLO is a game of position, either you wanna be all-in or play a small pot from UTG.

[Filip]

I would call and my only concern would be if he got my flushes coverd with his AAxx or not.

The hand plays itself on the flop(check fold/call).


5 min later:
Hmmmm no ive been thinking some more, since i really dont want multiple callers with my bad position maybe pushing is better.

Tilt: why do we wanna play this hand multiway if calling would get more people in? What am i missing?

[emil3000]

Yeah I like busting aces as much as the next guy, it's just that 30% seems like a big amount to put in, I am not really sure how often I will hit a flop to continue with. If I hit a pair on the flop it's a fairly tough decision. I will likely have people behind me. With one opponent I go in with a pair on most flops but with like two people behind me that migh have hit sets and whatnot it's not that obvious, since my equity against the aces aren't great to begin with with only one pair.
I am not an odds expert yet but I would expect something like 46%-54% QJT8ds vs AAxx on a Tyz flop with no flush draw. I don't know if I should call all in there when there are two people behind me that could have me in very bad shape. So I lose some of my profitable spots (or at least make them less profitable) when there are people behind me.

I guess I never fold here, but I am thinking pushing might be better than calling?

EDIT: My equity is probably lower than those % now that I think about it. 40-60 might be more accurate.

[jomatty]

the big mistake is raising that hand (or pretty much anything else) utg. i dont like the spot after the raise but anything you do from here on out is prob resonable. i prob call but could easily see a fold, and am open to a push being ok too. i like calling better than pushing because the advantage i see is knowing half your opponents hand. if you push you are giving up that advantage. if you had deeper stacks i would def say call for this reason. with deeper stacks you would be in a much better situation to potentially bluff "knowing" he cant call or try to play a big pot when you hit poss as little as two pair.
the more i think about it the more i like calling better than raising with folding being slightly better than raising.
matty

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Tilt: why do we wanna play this hand multiway if calling would get more people in? What am i missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand your question, but i'll take a stab at answering it anyway:

I think you are best off forcing out the higher flush draws if you can. There may be higher straight draws that you can get out as well, plus you might get rid of the two pair combos that you could wind up splitting the pot with.

But most importantly why I advocate pushing is that you really want to eliminate position as a factor in the hand. Also, there is a small chance that the raiser has kings and will fold. I hope no one will argue that that is absurd - I see it all the time - so I would not discount the possibility that there is some fold equity here.

Acesover8's makes a good point, in that calling means you pay 30% of your stack for the option of going all-in as a favorite on the flop. I just think without having done the math that 30% is too much for that. But calling has another effect, in that you may not be the only caller (though most times you will be). I think without position that I don't want to be multiway here since it will be near impossible to win the pot without a showdown in that scenario.

[punter11235]

I dont raise UTG but if you can get 5 callers its ok /images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Now I call and I am happy to play against his AA. (which mean I checkraise allin with any hand which is favourite against AA).

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tilt: why do we wanna play this hand multiway if calling would get more people in? What am i missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand your question, but i'll take a stab at answering it anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure i understand my question either, cocaine is a hell of a drug.

On a serious note, i thought u meant that if calling would ensure a multiway pot that was to be preferred and i was trying to figure out why.


Is there an empiric way to determine the EV of both situations? Untop of my head i would say it would be tough since there are many factors to consider like FE and the risk of it getting multiway. But what if we make the assumption that it will be HU in both cases, anyone got any ideas?

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tilt: why do we wanna play this hand multiway if calling would get more people in? What am i missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand your question, but i'll take a stab at answering it anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure i understand my question either, cocaine is a hell of a drug.

On a serious note, i thought u meant that if calling would ensure a multiway pot that was to be preferred and i was trying to figure out why.


Is there an empiric way to determine the EV of both situations? Untop of my head i would say it would be tough since there are many factors to consider like FE and the risk of it getting multiway. But what if we make the assumption that it will be HU in both cases, anyone got any ideas?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it. There are too many shared card/draw possibilities. The equity ranges are pretty broad I think.

[emil3000]

Aight thanks guy and gals. I called, blanked and folded. Got two callers behind me, one of which busted his aces I think.

Seems like call is the most voiced opinion, with some dissension. I kinda value punters and acesover8s opinion the highest.

I still am not sure about raising UTG. Maybe I will stop it completely until I am a better Omaha player.