Hand from Bellagio 5 diamond

[Gigabet]

I opened in the cutoff with AdQd, JJ Liu makes it 140k from the button. Blinds fold. Flop is K66 rainbow. I check, JJ Liu bets 100k, I call. Turn is offsuit 2, I bet 200k, JJ calls. River is another offsuit blank, I shove for the rest of her stack(about 600k more). She calls and opens KK.

Earlier in the night, she folded KK face up on a flop of T66, with preflop action like this, phil laak opens utg for a standard raise. JJ Liu reraises big from the button, folds to Laak who calls. Laak leads the flop for 75k(with around 500k behind before the bet, I believe.) JJ raises Laak to 175k, with around 900k behind her. Laak shoves the rest of his stack in. She thinks for 10 minutes and then mucks KK face up.

Side Note: I had never been caught bluffing by anyone at the table, and JJ had consistently shown that she respected my raises, she knew I was out of line alot preflop, but postflop, she never saw anything from me that could be construed as "way out of line."


I had actually been playing relatively passive post flop with the intention of getting into a situation with her such as this. My thinking was that if I could get to the river without allowing the pot to get way out of line, but still large enough to make it worth my while, then I could get her to fold everything but the near nuts. We both very lighthearted with each throughout the night, and joked and talked through different hands as they were being played out....I really believe she is folding everything but the hand she had and quads, of course.

[runner4life7]

im glad you made this post, i followed the pokerwire updates and it was nice to see the situation as I assumed you had a read and you did, so yeah thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif good luck tomorrow

[Exitonly]

Yea she probably doesn't call with less than a K... but how often is she going to be getting to this point without a K.

I think the flop was where to try something. She bets small w/ 100k.. why not try to take it from her here with a checkraise.

[lacky]

well, i liked the flop call intending to steal, but the her call on the turn when you do make the move looks really bad to me, warning bells going off kinda stuff. I mean, she's not on a draw, and if she's playing carefull, at that point I'd be thinking she has the K, or a high pair and is convinced you dont. either way maybe you give up on this one.

BUT, standered disclaimer, I donk off chips more often than most, and have ran crappy in general lately, so take anything i'm saying for what it's worth.

[psyduck]

Tough hand. I mean, you look like a genius when she folds AK or QQ, but when you bluff into the second nuts, then you look sorta retarded.

[citanul]

exit,

he said that he thinks she doesn't call on the end with less than KK, that's way different than not calling without at least one king.

c

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be thinking she has the K, or a high pair and is convinced you dont

[/ QUOTE ]

I also thought that she had a K, or at the very worst JJ, but I really trusted my read that she would fold all one pair hands, and possibly even A6(which, given the preflop action is a virtual impossible holding for her.) I had been in several hands where the action made it to the river, and I had made large bets on that street, and always showed the nuts, or near nuts. Remember, we were talking throughout the night about hands being played out, so it was definitely recognized by her that I only made it to the river with the best hand. There was never a situation(that was shown down) where I had made a river bet, that wasn't obviously a value bet, that a one pair hand could beat.

In retrospect, I wish I had given the hand up, but I had spent alot of time setting up a big hand with her, and this really felt like it was the "spot." I felt like I needed to take advantage of it, while it was there. In any case, when I was thinking about the size of my bet on the turn, I really wanted to make a bet that tested her stack, yet, wasn't impossible to call, with the idea that my continuation bet on the river was a natural conclusion to representing the near nuts, but with overtones of a bluff. Which would be very similar to other lines I had played out in previous hands, yet showed the near nuts.

[raptor517]

the way i see it, you check she bet about 1/3 of the pot on the flop. fine, you call cuz 1/3 doesnt mean a whole lot. pots now about 500k. you bet 200, meaning if she calls total pot is around 900k, JUST enough to make a perfect 600k bet on the river to drag the pot. i like yer thinking a lot from that standpoint. damn near perfect pot building.

however.. what kind of hand, will she reraise with pf, bet 1/3 the pot, and called yer 2/5 pot bet on the turn. on a K662 board. i think, as im sure she does, that you are capable of using that betting pattern with any RANGE or hands, AK, 56d, AJ, and 44 included. however, with a weaker hand, say QQ/JJ type of hand, maybe even AK, i think she puts in a raise on the turn, and i dont think for a second she calls expecting to check it down on the river. she knows better than to think yer gonna give up the pot on the end. this leaves 2 hands in my mind that she can make this play with. KK and AA. i dont think for a second that she is folding either of these for a 600k bet into the 900k pot on the river. you must give her a TON of respect if you think she folds AA there, or even AK. K66 isnt even close to the same type of board as T66.

i understand that it was a situation play, etc, that you had been building up for and wanted to take advantage of the situation, etc. however, i dont think this was QUITE the situation you were looking for, as it was a draw free paired board in which the 6 PROBABLY didnt help you. meh, i duno, i love the betting pattern you used, as its one of my favorites, but not on this kind of board. holla

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
she knows better than to think yer gonna give up the pot on the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had given up at least 3 other pots to her, after making one fairly large continuation bet, and she had always proceeded to bet behind me, when I checked the next street, and I had folded. Because we were discussing almost every hand that was being played out, she had always shown her hand, even though her bet wasn't called, and it was always, an overpair, TPTK, or an underpair to just the top pair on board. Basically, we had established that we were not going to get involved in big pots with each other, without very strong holdings. We both had too many chips, and too much to lose.

[ QUOTE ]
you must give her a TON of respect if you think she folds AA there, or even AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really isn't about giving her respect, it is about her past play, she is definitely more into stack protection than making great reads. She would frequently call smallish bets, that couldn't hurt her stack, with much less than top pair. But if there were any type of action that threatened her stack, she never showed worse than TPTK, and that is when the opposing player gave up, whenever the pressure continued, she wouldn't even call. Granted, those hands where she didn't call, she may have had garbage, but more likely, she was folding because she didn't want to damage her stack, if she didn't have the best hand. I don't think that she really even tried making a read that wasn't based on bet sizes. Based on that, and the fact that I had set up a pattern of only having very strong hands when I bet large on the river, I am 100% that she is never calling with AA or AK on the river.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I am 100% that she is never calling with AA or AK on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is an incredible strong assessment. she would have to ping you on damn near exactly KK. as such.. is the line you took on this hand the line you would take with KK? obv her reaction would be different because she didnt in fact have KK also.. however im curious how you would play such a hand, or even something like 76s/65s type of hand.. presuming she had AA or AK and you were trying to maximize value. holla

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
she would have to ping you on damn near exactly KK

[/ QUOTE ]

No, remember, that I had stated earlier that she had known that I frequently would get out of line preflop, for me to be holding two random cards in that spot is definitely something that I knew that she could recognize. In our past pots together, the hands that she had taken down, she took with no contest, after I had given up after taking one stab. Obviously, these hands it was obvious that I had two random cards, and just missed the board, which became apparent after she bet and I instantly folded, I don't waste time trying to make people think that I could call their bet, as some do after taking a stab and then folding. I just instantly fold. I am in enough pots where it is clear that it is unlikely for me to be holding a premium hand, at any given time, so trying to act as if I might call has no benefits, it isn't going to cause people to play back at me less. These people are not idiots, they know that I am stealing, and I don't even try and convince them otherwise...I just say something like, "your lucky I raised/bet with trash," and fold. So in the hand above, if I don't think that she cannot extend her read of my range of hands to include a six, would make this whole line ridiculous for me to play.

She was there when I doubled through Patrick with 75, and she was also there when I busted Joe Seebok with 86 in a raised pot. And we had talked about these hands as well, so I had a very good idea of what level of thinking she was on, in any given situation.

[raptor517]

fair enough. given the information you have now detailed out, i really like the way you played the hand. sure had to pry to get ya to talk about it a bit /images/graemlins/wink.gif good luck in the tournament. im curious though, how did raja play, i noticed he busted around 40thish, and i havent had a chance to talk to him since the end of day one. holla

[GimmeDaWatch]

Gig, whatever conjecture may be brought up about this hand, that obviously took alot of balls, so here here. Anyway, what were your thoughts about the tiny underbet on the flop? This would be a really strange bet from my perspective w/QQ-TT/AQ-AJ as she wouldnt want to induce a call or show too much weakness. I suppose she could figure you to be drawing nearly dead as well if she had AA/AK but still, it looks a little fishy. Kind of reminds me of the "please play back at me" thing David Williams pulled in the WSOP final table against Matt Dean. I remember watching the hand play out live on Stars, and thinking his small re-raise from the blind was bizarre in that it would never get anyone to fold, and then he bets tiny on the flop and induces Dean to move in w/AT against his AA. The two hands are obviously not the same, just curious if you had any thoughts on it at the time.

[Seadood228]

I think you are right about her folding all but the top two hands given how she played previously, and her line looks very much like AA,AK,KK and maybe TT-QQ. Only one of those hands should be scary, and unfortunately you ran into it.

This is one of those situations where I could make the same read, and but never have the balls to make such a play. That alone deserves a lot of credit.

[Seadood228]

I think the retards will think he looks retarded. I think the rest of the table fears him after this hand, if he has a decent amount of chips left.

If he tabled AK instead of AQ, then maybe he looks retarded /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Irieguy]

You are making this play because of your level of confidence in JJ's ability to make a mistake (ie, folding the best hand on the river.)

But, there is another mistake she is capable of making; tipping off the strength of her hand when she has a non-foldable monster.

Your line makes it very hard for her to call the river with anything less than KK,66, or A6... but is there a line that would make it just as hard for her to call the river, but easier for you to tell that she's pat?

Your description of her earlier play leads me to think that she could make a mistake on the flop with a nut hand, and is unlikely to try and take the pot there with a hand she would later abandon.

I like the flop check, because the whole point of this hand is to get her to put some money into the pot and then fold at the end. But I would have been inclined to check-raise the flop and lead the turn.

That line really isn't any weaker than the line you took, but it gives her an opportunity to make a mistake and disclose her strength on the flop. Since you really aren't worried about her pushing with a hand that she would fold on the river with (are you?), I would prefer that line as it allows me to save 500,000-700,000 chips the few times that she really has it.

What makes me even more inclined to c/r the flop is the very distinct possibility that she could have AK and wouldn't be able to lay it down on the end. She would definitely telegraph this on the flop and give me a chance to give up.

I think I want to be able to have a chance to give up on this hand considering the relative chip stacks this late in the event. I really wouldn't want to give it all away without at least a chance to uncover my fate if I'm running into something bad.

Irieguy

[Roman]

Given your read of the situation, which I will assume is accurate (it sounds reasonable enough), I really like the way you played this hand. You built up a really big pot for yourself and made the type of bet where she would need near-nuts to call. Sucks that you ran into a monster, but it happens.

The only other factor that I would consider is that this bluff if fairly risky considering she often has a really strong hand when she makes it to the river here. How easily where you accumulating chips from the other players? I am not sure the risk of running into a monster at the expense of your stack was worth it if you had an otherwise soft table. Losing this pot left you with much less room to play, you can't really make too many plays that don't risk too much of your stack anymore.

This play would be much much better if either she had less or you had more chips, where losing it would leave still leave you with a deep stack.

I like the idea about the hand, but there are a couple of things I find problematic. First, you don't mention looking for any reads on the given hand. It seems that you arbitrarily decided "this" would be the hand for you to make a move. Also, is this the best board for that play? The pair on the flop may scare her, but it's not nearly as bad as a 4458 board or something like that. Do you think she's more inclined to fold because of the relatively tame looking flop? That's certainly a possobility. For the most part I like the idea of using your knowledge to make a well-thought out play, but have to wonder (especially knowing the result) if you were careful enough to choose the best possible time.

[citanul]

in an effort to try to get the discussions concentrated, as this hand is now being discussed in at least 3 forums, let's try to hook this up to the mtt forum thread on the same hand:
Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4200896&an=0&page=1#Post 4200896)

citanul