3 AK preflop hands (with a quiz!)

[ajmargarine]

Here are 3 hands I played today. Villians in these hands are not so good. Maniacs, fish, and ATMs are terms that come to mind. 2 of these hands I pushed preflop, one I folded. You tell me which one I folded. (Meh, a couple of these limits are higher, but this is really a basic SSNL post)

Comments welcome on all hands.
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Hand #1

.50/$1 NLHE Full Table, 5-handed

Hero ($150), Villian covers

Preflop: Hero is SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Villian raises to $2, Hero raises to $9, 1 fold, Villian raises to $22, Hero...
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Hand #2

$1/$2 NLHE Full Table, 7-handed

UTG+1 ($140)
MP1 ($710)
CO ($140)
Button ($200)
Hero ($315)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $10, MP1 raises to $20, CO calls $20, Button calls $20, Hero...
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Hand #3

$1/$3 NLHE Full Table, 7-handed

UTG, UTG+1, and MP all have about $140, Hero covers.

Preflop: Hero is Button with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $3, UTG+1 raises to $21, MP calls $21, 1 fold, Hero...

[DJ Sensei]

maybe its just me, but i rarely push AK preflop, unless against a short enough stack. There would have to be a few conditions in place if i was going to do it with deeper stacks:

-Lots of dead money in the pot, but also plenty of fold equity, and not wanting to get overcommitted to a multi-way pot postflop (see hand #2)
-One stupid and particularly aggressive opponent in the pot, especially in a steal situation (AKA, can't fold his AJ after he's made 2 raises with it already, see hand #1)
-Perhaps if i raised first in, several people called, and a known very-aggressive player made a big raise (likely a squeeze play) I might push over the top.

[trumpman84]

If you're going to fold one, i think #1 is the one to do it. Smallish pot, you are out of position and Villain has told you twice he has a big hand. The other two, there is a ton of dead money with all the cold calls which probably are not great hands.

[LetYouDown]

Fold hand 1. Hand 2 I don't like the push at all. Hand 3 it makes sense.

[orange]

I think hand 1 is the one. No dead money, HU, 3-betted, and villan and you have both shown strength.

Hands 2+3 have lots of dead money, pretty good FE, and even if someone calls, you are generally 50/50 to win.

[DoomSlice]

Weeeee... picking up dead money is so fun isn't it?

(Regardless of strategy, you could probably tell that Hand 1 is the most different of the 3 hands)

hand 1, i fold - hand 2, a read on MP1 would help - donk/lag or weak tighty? ive seen this done with crap, but a mini re-raise is also a sign of big strength - CO and button are probably just fishing for sets or big flops - tought decision but w/o a read I fold. -low stacks; could mean a lot- i think i push

[ajmargarine]

Note: These guys are all donks, maniacs and ATM's...Not a good player amongst them.

[LetYouDown]

[ QUOTE ]
donks, maniacs and ATM's

[/ QUOTE ]
Just saw that...that changes everything. Possibly fold all 3.

[DoomSlice]

Wouldn't that change to possibly calling all 3?

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't that change to possibly calling all 3?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in my book, one of these is a fold for me...

[LetYouDown]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't that change to possibly calling all 3?

[/ QUOTE ]
Against 3 ATMs I'm folding all 3. Without specifically saying which is a calling station, which is a maniac, etc...it's way too random. Based on the general statement, I'm playing ultra-tight/aggressive at this table. AK isn't good enough. I'm waiting for a high pair, a set or a nut hand that I'm sure they'll pay off and I'm playing it fast.

[DoomSlice]

Is MP1 in hand 2 donkish enough to min-raise high pairs?

[DoomSlice]

Call me crazy, but I think playing ultra-tight in these situations is a HUGE mistake.

Hands that arn't usually profitable against a raise (AJ, AQ, KQ) now have a significant equity edge against the range of hands that maniacs raise. Instead of folding these now, I'm more inclined to reraise.

[LetYouDown]

And they're more inclined to call...as is their nature. I don't want to play footraces here with my A-J vs. their 10-10. I want to play my middle set against their TPTK or my A-A vs. their A-Q.

[DoomSlice]

Who says you're racing AJ vs TT? Much of the time you'll be AJ vs KT, AQ vs A5s, 88 vs 33, etc...

The hand range of a maniac is huge!

[ajmargarine]

Wow, I thought this was semi-obvious. But so far, I'm the only person who voted for the right answer.



/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[LetYouDown]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand range of a maniac is huge!

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly my point. I don't want to even have to think about what they might hold. These games are so easy that you can nut peddle all day. Why push marginal edges? Yes, I realize A-J vs. K-10 can't be considered marginal traditionally, but in this game you're going to get tons of guaranteed double ups.

[ajmargarine]

I'm not pushing AJ. This is AK. Best of all non-pair hands. Don't underestimate FE. Maniacs don't mind pushing, they don't always like to call pushes.

[LetYouDown]

[ QUOTE ]
Maniacs, fish, and ATMs are terms that come to mind

[/ QUOTE ]
You never specify who is who. ATMs/fish are completely different from maniacs. 3 maniacs and 3 fish are totally different ball games.

If a maniac opens for $10 and a passive player minraises it means something entirely different than a maniac opening for $10 and a maniac minraising to $20.

[DoomSlice]

I take every equity edge I can get. "Waiting for a better spot" is a phrase that I see quite often here and absolutely LOATHE. The only time you should ever pass up a +EV situation is when it prevents you from making a bigger +EV situation down the road. As long as you aren't super deep already, or short-rolled for the game, this will not apply.

[LetYouDown]

Hero has 150+ BB in hands 1/2 and is covered in both. He's reasonably deep. There's a difference between being weak/tight and waiting for a better spot. Loathe it all you want.

[poincaraux]

These aren't always push or fold for me, but I thought it was hand #2 /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
These aren't always push or fold for me, but I thought it was hand #2 /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a winner!!!

[LetYouDown]

[ QUOTE ]
We have a winner!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool! For once making a bad choice related to poker pays off /images/graemlins/grin.gif

AJ, do we get an explanation of why you pushed 1 and 3 and folded 2? I would like to know your thought process.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
AJ, do we get an explanation of why you pushed 1 and 3 and folded 2? I would like to know your thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #1 -- Villian's a donk. Open-Minraised me preflop from button. I put in a real raise. He raises again. A little more than a minraise but not much. I'm not going to play AK OOP agst him and I'm not folding it either. I figure I am ahead of his hand most of the time and I have alot of FE. I push, he calls with QQ. So he actually had a premium hand. I spike a K, and double up.

Hand #2 -- I have 1.5+ buy-ins. Preflop reraiser has 3.5 buy-ins. I'm not going to risk that against a guy who covers me. (EDIT: especially in this huge family pot situation) Also, the initial PFR can reopen the betting if I just call. I don't like the push here. And, I don't like the call. I don't want to make a real raise and play a big pot OOP. I've invested one dollar in the hand so far. I'm probably missing a little EV by folding...but it can't be alot. Original PFR held QQ in this hand, flopped a set that turned into quads, and scooped a nice pot.

Hand #3 -- Both guys have half-stacks. Imagine a NL25 table where the folks have $12 in front of them. You guys can see pushing that at NL25, right? I want to see 5 cards with AK. I have alot of FE. Pots big enough to take it right there. My push squeezes the original PFR'er. In this hand, I pushed, and both villians folded.

[Malachii]

1 I insta muck.
2 I call.
3 I push.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I've invested one dollar in the hand so far.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably missing a little EV by folding...but it can't be alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic is pretty awful.

Where can the results from the votings be found?

[ QUOTE ]
maybe its just me, but i rarely push AK preflop, unless against a short enough stack. There would have to be a few conditions in place if i was going to do it with deeper stacks:

-Lots of dead money in the pot, but also plenty of fold equity, and not wanting to get overcommitted to a multi-way pot postflop (see hand #2)
-One stupid and particularly aggressive opponent in the pot, especially in a steal situation (AKA, can't fold his AJ after he's made 2 raises with it already, see hand #1)
-Perhaps if i raised first in, several people called, and a known very-aggressive player made a big raise (likely a squeeze play) I might push over the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you there are better spots than a 50/50 unless u expect the FE to be quite high!

I picked hand 2. Its either a push or fold here in my oppinion. Would rather fold then have to get something to help my hand. I would just call hand #1. And hand # 3 I would also just raise/call.

[EMcWilliams]

I can say that I picked hand 2 simply based on the fact you were deeply covered and the tremendous amount of action that was infront of you. In that situation you might see 1-3 callers, which is not what you want.

[DoomSlice]

It may be just me, but I think your thought process for hand 2 is a little reversed. Since MP1 has such a big stack, I would be more inclined to take risks in order to build it up and do battle with him.

[DoomSlice]

You don't even need FE for a 50/50 to be profitable... there just has to be dead money in the pot.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #1 -- Villian's a donk. Open-Minraised me preflop from button. I put in a real raise. He raises again. A little more than a minraise but not much. I'm not going to play AK OOP agst him and I'm not folding it either. I figure I am ahead of his hand most of the time and I have alot of FE. I push, he calls with QQ. So he actually had a premium hand. I spike a K, and double up.



[/ QUOTE ]

We all expected this (except I thought AA). When a donk minraises-3bets its usually a stellar holding. Especially when you were in the blinds man; he didn't want you folding. I see this play and note it very often, most times when its shown down it's a premium hand. I think this should be an instant fold. In my mind you got the best scenario

[Isura]

Hand 1: fold. Deep stacked, out of position, facing a reraise. Even being suited, still too much reverse implied odds here.

The other 2 are auto-pushes.

True but its V+. And I think there will come upp better spots. Anyway Im a beginner trying to learn this, might try this play some weeks.

[unlucky513]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've invested one dollar in the hand so far.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably missing a little EV by folding...but it can't be alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic is pretty awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've read 3 of your posts today and you've been a dick in all 3.

pushing hand 1 is bad - i don't mind your play on 2 or 3, tho.

[ajmargarine]

Meh. Regarding Hand #1. You guys have seen this before. A donk minraises preflop, another donk minraises back, and they minraise back and forth 2 more times, and they have QT and A8...I had a good read on the dude in Hand #1. I didn't put specific reads in on each villian in each hand because I didn't want to make the OP too long. Turns out he had a good hand, but he could have very easily had a J9/KT type hand there.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh. Regarding Hand #1. You guys have seen this before. A donk minraises preflop, another donk minraises back, and they minraise back and forth 2 more times, and they have QT and A8...I had a good read on the dude in Hand #1. I didn't put specific reads in on each villian in each hand because I didn't want to make the OP too long. Turns out he had a good hand, but he could have very easily had a J9/KT type hand there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean hand 2?

[fathertime]

only 1 clear to me is #3--though if they are so bad I'd seriously consider calling and playing position.

hand 1 looks fishy--2 min-raises.

hand 2 I'd love to see a flop, though I'd be afraid of OR reraising.

[2+2 wannabe]

#2

[teamdonkey]

If you're pushing two of them and folding the other, #2 has to be the fold. Don't like folding here, but i like pushing less and calling is worst IMO. #1 i think pushing is questionable... highly donk specific, and only you know your donk. The clearest decision is #3, easy push.