67s - 100NL - i probably play bad

[unlucky513]

party 100NL 6max, 5 handed

no real reads, villian has been here for 40 or so hands, hasn't done anything out of line

no fold preflop comments, i've been playing very LAG

i ($250) call UTG w/ 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, fold, villain (button, $110) makes it $4, i'm only caller

$10 flop 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
i bet $7, he makes it $30

plenty of options - let me hear your play and give reasons

[tagtastic]

Push? You're a dog only to a set and a higher flush draw, and you're far from dead vs. those as well.

[DJ Sensei]

since you're oop, you dont want to call and see a blank turn. push and take his stack.

if he calls you an idiot after you do so, you probably should take note that he, in fact, is the idiot. if he rebuys, take his stack again. that'll teach him.

[Cosimo]

You're 54% to hit either your straight or flush. Unless he's got A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, you're in good shape. You're a favorite against AA and KK. 51.62% against one with a diamond, 56.62% against one without.

I'm risk-averse. While typing this up, I just had 78s against a 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif hand. I didn't push, but I reraised big (from position), checked the turn when I missed, and checked the river when that missed too.

Thing is, I was a 64% favorite in the hand, so for every dollar I got him to call, I was profiting about 30c. Of course, I didn't know his hand at the time. The biggest raise that he'd call would make good money; if he folded, I'd take down the pot there.

So, dunno. It's easy to say "push" but I'm not sure I believe it myself. Someone, convince me plz. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I think when you lead the turn, you pretty much are required to shove it in there when he reraises you. If you had check/raised it'd be a whole different ball game, but the only reason to lead this flop is that you're hoping to take it down or 3 bet with a shove.

If it's overpair, you're up 60/40, before you've even considered your fold equity.

If it's a set, you're well behind and have no fold equity.

If it's a draw, he should now fold to a push straight away, as the best draw he can realisitcally have is J10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif any other draw and he's getting horrible pot odds to call.

I'd say you're about 50/50, before you've considered fold equity, which should be very considerable, so push and pray.

[Mercman572]

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no fold preflop comments, i've been playing very LAG

i ($250) call UTG

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Then I especially hate it when you CALL UTG. What does that say to YOU when a lag breaks trend and limp calls? To me it says he's got a hand even HE feels isn't worth raising. I think he puts you on a draw, but I doubt he can guess how strong of a draw that is. I don't know how much fold equity you have here, but you are a favorite against most of his holdings (I suspect he's married to his overpair). But I have no way of knowing how rational he is or how conspicuously lag you've been playing, and if he can adapt to that. That beeing said, He's put about a 1/3 of his stack in already and you need to see both cards. I guess push

[unlucky513]

i agree - PF was bad.. not something i'd normally do.

anyway, i flat call his flop raise, on to the turn...

(~$70)TURN
K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

what is the best play here? villain has about ~$75 left

Preflop aint too horrible, especially if the table isn't very aggressive. Also, if you are playing LAG you are more likely to get paid off if / when you hit.

Anyway, push over that $30 bet. No other way to play it. In position you can call a flop lead sometimes.

[unlucky513]

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Anyway, push over that $30 bet. No other way to play it. In position you can call a flop lead sometimes.

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i'm suprised at the number of replies that have advised a push on the flop - looking back it seems like the best line to take.

i'd never seen villain do anything like this so i put him on an overpair. i wasn't sure if i wanted him to call my push - should i? i probably play scared so i just called. how bad is that??

[beavens]

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Anyway, push over that $30 bet. No other way to play it. In position you can call a flop lead sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm suprised at the number of replies that have advised a push on the flop - looking back it seems like the best line to take.

i'd never seen villain do anything like this so i put him on an overpair. i wasn't sure if i wanted him to call my push - should i? i probably play scared so i just called. how bad is that??

[/ QUOTE ]

a push might induce a fold, which gives you another way to win the hand.

[unlucky513]

see my post earlier.. i need comments on the turn card.

Youi have 9 flush draw outs.
You also have the non diamond 5s and 10's for 2 more outs, = 4.
you also have 3 more 6's and 7's but you'll probably need 3 of them to win, because i think he's got a set.
so, without the 6and 7's you have 13 outs in 47 cards = about 1:3.5 With just one opponent, you are getting 1;1 odds on your bets; not good at all.
You must also factor in whether you can stack your opponent if you hit your draw. Generally TAG players fold, and loose ones call.
IMO, this is not a heads up hand. This is a great multiway pot hand, where youir bet is matched by 2 or 3 others.
In your particular hand, the questions become:
"Will he call my push if I hit my hand?
More importantly, "If I hit my hand, is it good?"

I definitely fold this hand after trying to win it with a big flop bet, and i find myself heads up facing a big raise.

[Mercman572]

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Anyway, push over that $30 bet. No other way to play it. In position you can call a flop lead sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm suprised at the number of replies that have advised a push on the flop - looking back it seems like the best line to take.

i'd never seen villain do anything like this so i put him on an overpair. i wasn't sure if i wanted him to call my push - should i? i probably play scared so i just called. how bad is that??

[/ QUOTE ]

you were close to "indifferent" of him calliing, all but a set or better FD and you were ahead. The problem with calling is now you are only about 33% to make your hand and have less fold equity. Had the turn been a diamond you were much less likely to get his chips in the middle. So a flop call was very bad.

[4_2_it]

Push or fold are your two flop options. You are a favorite against most of villain's probable range so pushing is most +EV.

I think calling is the most -EV thing you can do here because if you hit your draw villain is not going to immediately hand his stack over to you. He will most likely fold to any sign of aggressive once a scare card hits. You will also not get correct odds to call his turn pot-sized bet.

Get villain's money in the middle when he is an underdog should be your first consideration. If you don't win the hand, just spend your Sklansky bucks wisely.

If you play scared, you will never get real paid. One of the things you have to be able to do if you plan to eventually play $100, $200 and beyond is to not be afraid to risk your stack on a draw when you are the favorite to win. This also has the added bonus of giving bad players the impression that you like to gamboool it up

[unlucky513]

i bet $40 on the turn, he folded.

next time, i push the flop

thx

[4_2_it]

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i bet $40 on the turn, he folded.

next time, i push the flop

thx

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I think it takes more guts to bet that turn than push on the flop.

[wdeadwyler]

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i bet $40 on the turn, he folded.

next time, i push the flop

thx

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I think calling and leading turn is an advanced line to use on very capable and solid thinking players that has its merits at 400NL+. It looks like a set trying to price out a combo-draw. I wouldnt use it at these stakes, but its a good line to have in your aresenal in solid thinking games.
I think it takes more guts to bet that turn than push on the flop.

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[4_2_it]

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i bet $40 on the turn, he folded.

next time, i push the flop

thx

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I think calling and leading turn is an advanced line to use on very capable and solid thinking players that has its merits at 400NL+. It looks like a set trying to price out a combo-draw. I wouldnt use it at these stakes, but its a good line to have in your aresenal in solid thinking games.
I think it takes more guts to bet that turn than push on the flop.

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Well said. What is your line if the river bricks? In a thinking game, I'm guessing a value bet bluff is all you need to try or just check/fold if you know villain is going to look you up.

[wdeadwyler]

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i bet $40 on the turn, he folded.

next time, i push the flop

thx

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling and leading turn is an advanced line to use on very capable and solid thinking players that has its merits at 400NL+. It looks like a set trying to price out a combo-draw. I wouldnt use it at these stakes, but its a good line to have in your aresenal in solid thinking games.
I think it takes more guts to bet that turn than push on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Well said. What is your line if the river bricks? In a thinking game, I'm guessing a value bet bluff is all you need to try or just check/fold if you know villain is going to look you up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the opponent, and I haven used this line very much so Im not sure. Im inclined to c/f most of the time though, but I doubt villain is gonna fire on the river when you check, as he would be scared of a c/r.

Do we want solid thinking villain to see our cards on river and know we use this line?
(IMO this line means either a set or a big draw, so I guess villain knowing this would still make it tough for him to play against it)

[scrapperdog]

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So, dunno. It's easy to say "push" but I'm not sure I believe it myself. Someone, convince me plz. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

When you have room to manuver this is not a standard push for me. However with the large bet in this case you really cant call and see what happens on the turn.

[4_2_it]

Actually having villain see this line is great for meta game purposes (think about it for a minute).

DISCLAIMER -- I am talking about NL $200 and higher, not Party NL $25.

OP --- Sorry about the partial hi-jack, but I am fascinated by this line.....

[limon]

ok i wont tell you to fold pre BUT dont call. move him in ur even w/ his likely overpair and have some fold equity.

[unlucky513]

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Well said. What is your line if the river bricks?

[/ QUOTE ]

if he flat calls the turn he'll have about $35 left, i doubt he'll fold if i bet his last $35 on the river. on the other hand, i don't see why he'd flat call the turn at all... i'd probably c/f a bricked river, and then i'd cry because of how bad i played the hand.

thinking about that situation makes it obvious that a push on the flop is the only way to go, correct?

[wdeadwyler]

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Well said. What is your line if the river bricks?

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if he flat calls the turn he'll have about $35 left, i doubt he'll fold if i bet his last $35 on the river. on the other hand, i don't see why he'd flat call the turn at all... i'd probably c/f a bricked river, and then i'd cry because of how bad i played the hand.

thinking about that situation makes it obvious that a push on the flop is the only way to go, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an easy flop push at these stakes, period.

We were talking about at higher stakes, theoretically, how to handle a river with say one or two psb's left. I advcoate c/f, but as I said earlier, I doubt villain every bets a river here when you check, if he does, and you feel feisty, c/r all in might be super ballsy (and awesome?).

[4_2_it]

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Well said. What is your line if the river bricks?

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if he flat calls the turn he'll have about $35 left, i doubt he'll fold if i bet his last $35 on the river. on the other hand, i don't see why he'd flat call the turn at all... i'd probably c/f a bricked river, and then i'd cry because of how bad i played the hand.

thinking about that situation makes it obvious that a push on the flop is the only way to go, correct?

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Yep. Without 100 or 200 bb's behind, a push is correct.

[unlucky513]

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I advcoate c/f, but as I said earlier, I doubt villain every bets a river here when you check, if he does, and you feel feisty, c/r all in might be super ballsy (and awesome?).

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c/r'ing the river AI would complete possibly the strangest line i can think of... if someone took that line against me, i'd be scratching my head for days...

brilliant if it works, donk if it doesnt.

[4_2_it]

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I advcoate c/f, but as I said earlier, I doubt villain every bets a river here when you check, if he does, and you feel feisty, c/r all in might be super ballsy (and awesome?).

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c/r'ing the river AI would complete possibly the strangest line i can think of... if someone took that line against me, i'd be scratching my head for days...

brilliant if it works, donk if it doesnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

It works if you are pushing $400 into a $250 pot. At SSNL levels, it is hari-kari with a dull sword.

[teamdonkey]

well you should have folded preflop, but you already know that.

you should have pushed the flop, but you know that to (calling is only an option if you have position)

the turn is also a mistake. not necessarily that you bet, but your bet size. The pot is $70 and he has $75 behind... you won't fold to a raise, so if you're going to bet it needs to be a push. Since you still have a lot of equity i probably push instead of checking. Note how much better off you are 3-betting the flop instead of this.

[unlucky513]

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well you should have folded preflop, but you already know that.

you should have pushed the flop, but you know that to (calling is only an option if you have position)

the turn is also a mistake. not necessarily that you bet, but your bet size. The pot is $70 and he has $75 behind... you won't fold to a raise, so if you're going to bet it needs to be a push. Since you still have a lot of equity i probably push instead of checking. Note how much better off you are 3-betting the flop instead of this.

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i realize my turn bet was small - i believe villain respected my play a lot during the short time we'd played together. if there is one thing i do like, its the size of my turn bet.

calling his hefty flop raise and leading the turn screams strength - don't you think?

[teamdonkey]

people defend their bet sizes at times by saying something like "a smaller bet looks suspicious, they're more likely to fold than if i push". I don't buy this. The simple fact is, in most cases, the more $ you bet the more often your opponent will fold.

The goal of your turn bet here is to get villain to fold. If he raises all-in, you're getting fantastic odds and will call. Why not put him all in to begin with, and have a better chance of folding him out?

[Malachii]

My opinion? Time to GAMBOOOOOOOOOL