K6s in BB - Turn Donk

[Evan]

I've been trying to win more pots out of position because I think I usually give up too easily. I was planning to donk pretty much any turn card. What do you think?

Party Poker 15.00/30.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(5 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.00 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.00 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

[DeathDonkey]

Hey Evan,

The problem I have here is that he is too likely to call with ace high, because its such an ugly board, a potential draw is there so you might be semibluffing with any diamond, and mostly because he would have a gutshot. And then for him its just one more bet on the river, and you have to fire both barrels. I think this is not the spot to try and win the pot OOP - I check/fold the flop.

-DeathDonkey

[Rubeskies]

Change the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to the 7 of non diamonds and I like it much better.

I agree with DD's reasons why this isn't a great spot for it.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I check/fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel like if I'm going to call fold a 552 flop I might as well just not play the hand. I'm not really disagreeing because that's what I'd usually do. But it just doesn't make sense if you think about the big picture (one less person, bigger pot, unilkely to have hit my opponent).

I don't know. Maybe I'm just trying a little too hard.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like if I'm going to call fold a 552 flop I might as well just not play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say that? Also I think that turn is probably one of the worst ones to donk

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Change the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to the 7 of non diamonds

[/ QUOTE ]
Even though the 3 gives me a gutshot?

[Spicymoose]

If you are making this play with here, I imagine that you are also doing it with T8, Q7, and just about every other non A hand that missed? I fold the flop.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like if I'm going to call fold a 552 flop I might as well just not play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Basically the same thing I said in my OP, I feel like I'm giving up too easy.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Change the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to the 7 of non diamonds

[/ QUOTE ]
Even though the 3 gives me a gutshot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it also gives any A a gutshot making it much less likely you'll get A high to fold.

[Lmn55d]

The reason I call k6s in that spot getting 5:1 is not so I can make a +EV decision on a 552 flop

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I call k6s in that spot getting 5:1 is not so I can make a +EV decision on a 552 flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, but once you get the 552 flop that plan kind of sucks. Do you just check fold every flop without a pair or a draw? I feel like that can't be the best plan since you'll have the best hand sometimes and you should be bluffing some of the time.

[Lmn55d]

my point was just that even if you did check fold that flop every single time calling preflop would still be very +EV.

Against most playears I think check/fold is best. Yes, you may have the best hand but you're OOP and I think making a move on this flop will be too costly against most players.

Against some tight players, I could see calling the flop and donking a lot of turn cards (not 3d..i'm talking A/K/Q etc.) having the highest EV. That way you have a chance to hit a dirty out and can get him to fold Qx, Jx, Kx hands. But as a default I think check/fold is good.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
my point was just that even if you did check fold that flop every single time calling preflop would still be very +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, okay. I agree with that. My question is really about maximizing EV, not just ensuring it's positive.


[ QUOTE ]
Against most playears I think check/fold is best. Yes, you may have the best hand but you're OOP and I think making a move on this flop will be too costly against most players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay. That's pretty much what I'm asking.

[Lmn55d]

hey I Edited that last post with a qualifier about the call/donk play having the highest EV against some players, just wanted to make sure you saw that

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
hey I Edited that last post with a qualifier about the call/donk play having the highest EV against some players, just wanted to make sure you saw that

[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha, thanks. I don't think I knew anything about this guy.

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Change the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to the 7 of non diamonds

[/ QUOTE ]
Even though the 3 gives me a gutshot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it also gives any A a gutshot making it much less likely you'll get A high to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, but I doubt Ace high is folding anyway on this board. Since CO knows you can't expect him to fold Ace high, he may be more likely to fold his strong king highs which should help make this bluff profitable.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check/fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel like if I'm going to call fold a 552 flop I might as well just not play the hand. I'm not really disagreeing because that's what I'd usually do. But it just doesn't make sense if you think about the big picture (one less person, bigger pot, unilkely to have hit my opponent).

I don't know. Maybe I'm just trying a little too hard.

[/ QUOTE ]


the problem with calling the flop is you are committing yourself to taking a shot at the pot, at least some portion of the time. you dont have odds to draw to 6 outs, and thats not considering the fact that you dont have 6. and on this board, you just dont have much folding equity. and you always have the option of deciding on the turn whether you want to take it away. this was a bad card to do it on. first of all, it is a wheel card so Ax might even raise for a free sd. you need to be able to try and hit your outs when your bluff fails

the next is lots of hands are calling you. probably any hand with a diamond calls. you have very little FE on this board. deciding you are going to fire 2 barrels is not an option.

the last problem is this is the quintissential "no one has anything" board and i dont think it takes much more than a novice hand reader to know that you probably dont have anything

i mean, its nice to think "K high is good really often here" but as long as he has position and initiative its going to be tough to take it down with K high. when the times you do tkae it down, it will have taken a significant investment to do so

I hate these type of boards. It always turns into an e-penis battle.

[ArturiusX]

Good post.