Should Shoeless Joe Jackson Become Eligible for Hall of Fame ?

[adios]

The post about Babe Ruth and the sordid history of the policy of segragation in Major League Baseball got me thinking about Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis, the first commissioner of Major League Baseball which got me thinking of Shoeless Joe Jackson. We can discuss Landis if you all like but many things have come to light about Landis which let's say put him in a different light than being the grand savior of Major League Baseball. Landis was a racist and a tyrant to put it bluntly. Supposedly he had strong evidence that showed Ty Cobb was betting on baseball. When he confronted Cobb about it supposedly Cobb threatened to name a lot of names that would totally discredit the integrity of the game so Landis backed off. As you all probably know Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned by Landis for his "participation" in the Black Sox scandal regarding the 1919 World Series. Here's a site dedicated to the memory of Shoeless Joe:

Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame (http://www.blackbetsy.com/)

During the 1919 World Series Shoeless Joe batted .375 and by just looking at the numbers it's hard to see how a guy involved in a fix would be producing those kind's of numbers. Specifically from the URL I posted here's an accounting of Jackson's offensive statistics:

1919 World Series - Joe Jackson At A Glance (At The Plate) (http://www.blackbetsy.com/19atbat.htm)

Here's an accounting of Jackson's defensive play:

1919 World Series - Joe Jackson At A Glance (In The Field) (http://www.blackbetsy.com/19nfield.htm)

Really there is no evidence to support that Jackson tried to throw the Series and his exclusion from being considered from Hall of Fame voting is likely an injustice. The much venerated Landis needed to make a splash being a recently appointed commissioner and Jackson suffered because of it. It's well past time that Major League Baseball owns up to this travesty IMO.

[B-Man]

You left out a few important facts:

1. Shoeless Joe accepted a payoff. Sure he tried to give it back, but he souldn't have taken it in the first place.

2. There were two (2) triples hit to left field in that World Series. How many triples have you seen hit to left? This doesn't prove anything about his fielding, but if he purposely misplayed a couple of balls without making an error, it wouldn't show up on the stat sheet. I believe Ring Lardner did note a few questionable plays.

I go back on forth on Shoeless Joe. It's hard to prove now that he didn't take part in the fix.

I will say this much--he's got a much better case than Pete Rose. We know for a fact that Rose bet on baseball, and Rose voluntarily agreed to a lifetime suspension. What a shame if Pete Rose gets in and Shoeless Joe doesn't.

[Uston]

Other than the section where he gives a heap of evidence that Craig Biggio was a better player than Ken Griffey Jr. in their respective primes my favorite part of Bill James' New Baseball Historical Abstract is when he describes the people who want Joe Jackson in the HOF as "baseball's answer to those women who show up at murder trials wanting to marry the cute murderer."

[Clarkmeister]

He's dead now. It doesn't matter.

[andyfox]

There is the perception that the White Sox were much the superior team and that there must have been something funny for the Reds to wins the Series. But the Reds were a great team. This doesn't mean the Sox didn't throw some games, just that the perception of why they lost may be somewhat misguided.

The Reds were also approached by the gamblers. in Paul Gren's book Forgotten Fields Edd Roush, a great player, recounted the following:

Green: "But you honestly felt something was going on with players on your tema, too?

Roush: "Yeah, well, I always thought there was smoething going on. I saw some damn funny pitching out there myself.

Green: "On your team?"

Roush: "Yes."

Bill Veeck talks about information that the previous (1918) World Series was not on the up-and-up either. Babe Ruth pitched in that one.

Good information on the Cobb-Speaker incident in The Fix is In by Daniel E. Ginsburg. Here's a portion of a letter Ty Cobb wrote to Dutch Leonard, who had accused him and Speaker:

"Wood and myself are considerably disappointed in our busines proposition, as we had $2,000 to put into it and th eother side quouted us $1,400, and when we finally secured that much money it was about two o'clock and they hand not time, so we completely fell down and of course we felt badly about it."

The president of the America League arranged to pay Leeonard $20,000 for this letter, as well as one from Joe Wood, to buy Leonard's silence. Here's a portion of Wood's letter to Leonard:

"The only bet West could get up was $600 against $20 (10 to 7). Cobb did not get up a cent. He told us that and I believe him."

Cobb and Speaker had agreed to retire, on orders from the league president. But Landis hated Ban Johnson and adetermined to launch his own investigation and find out different information to humiliate Johnson.

For the 1919 World Series, see The 1919 World Series: What Really Happened? by William A. Cook.

[andyfox]

Two favorites of mine:

Under Bill Dickey:

"Joe Gantenbein hit .290 with the Athletics in 1939, then had an off year in 1940 and lost his job. In 1943 he was in unifrom, and he happened to run into Bill Dickey outside a hotel, waving for a taxi.

'Don't' I know you?' Dickey asked.

'Sure,' said Gentenbein.

'I can't remember your name,' said Dickey. 'But we used to pitch you high and outside.'

Under Joe Cronin:

"Joe Cronin was introduced to his future wife, Clark Griffith's daughter Mildred, by Joe Engel, who had purchased Cronin from Kansas City in the American Associaton. When he intorduced the two, Engel reportedly said, 'Hey, Millie, I brought you a husband from Kansas City." Now that is a scout . . .

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[Uston]

That is a great one about Bill Dickey, Andy. The description of Richie Ashburn hitting the woman with the foul ball, then hitting her again a couple of pitches later when she's being carried out of the stands on a stretcher is another great one, albeit not as funny.

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

IMO Shoeless joe jackson goes in before or with pete rose. I think shoeless joe belongs there more than pete .